Anyone familiar with #cut50?

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RiverguyVT
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by RiverguyVT »

Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
A process for reintegrating people back into society with a hope for success to reduce recidivism. THat's at the core.
Well, there's the rub.
We are failing at that now. What makes these social justice warriors think we'll do it better with so many more people released "all at once" (meaning, over 10 yrs)? That's quite a lump for a snake to swallow, and one that the snake hasn't been successful with much at all yet. The core notion of preventing recidivism has largely failed. Justice changed over a bit in the 1960s to more of a "rehabilitative" model from a punitive one. Well, that's not working.

And I fully expected jokes (a bit disappointed, really) to the tune of "who the hell is riverguy running around with, anyways!???"
Exactly - the punitive model isn't working. Recidivism isn't as easy and one has to accept the concept of forgiveness (and we are really bad at that as a society - look at Michael Vick) to make it work. It's hard but that isn't a reason not to do it because the alternative is only going to get more expensive and less effective.
We left the punitive model 50 years ago.
No we didn't. Our current model is punitive.
Well, we're at an impasse, then.
I see things as our having left the punitive for the rehabilitative, that failing, so even more rehabilitative focus being asked for.
Like many of our "social justice movements" asking for more of a failing policy just fails.
http://townhall.com/columnists/thomasso ... /page/full
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by Florida Hokie »

RiverguyVT wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
A process for reintegrating people back into society with a hope for success to reduce recidivism. THat's at the core.
Well, there's the rub.
We are failing at that now. What makes these social justice warriors think we'll do it better with so many more people released "all at once" (meaning, over 10 yrs)? That's quite a lump for a snake to swallow, and one that the snake hasn't been successful with much at all yet. The core notion of preventing recidivism has largely failed. Justice changed over a bit in the 1960s to more of a "rehabilitative" model from a punitive one. Well, that's not working.

And I fully expected jokes (a bit disappointed, really) to the tune of "who the hell is riverguy running around with, anyways!???"
Exactly - the punitive model isn't working. Recidivism isn't as easy and one has to accept the concept of forgiveness (and we are really bad at that as a society - look at Michael Vick) to make it work. It's hard but that isn't a reason not to do it because the alternative is only going to get more expensive and less effective.
We left the punitive model 50 years ago.
No we didn't. Our current model is punitive.
Well, we're at an impasse, then.
I see things as our having left the punitive for the rehabilitative, that failing, so even more rehabilitative focus being asked for.
Like many of our "social justice movements" asking for more of a failing policy just fails.
http://townhall.com/columnists/thomasso ... /page/full
If we actually had a rehabilitative process, this wouldn't have happened:

Image

So how about one that actually works?
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by cwtcr hokie »

Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:I'm a bit suspicious of any movement that self identifies as a "social justice movement"..and am willing to admit that mine is a knee-jerk reaction due to past "social justice movements" consisting largely of terrible ideologies. Well intended, but mischievously dangerous social experimentation.

THAT said.. I've also come in direct (first person) contact with people who I'm surprised did as much time as they did. One guy did 3+ yrs selling pot. He was in all the advanced calculus & trig classes in HS. College was out of the question for him. Another guy, did 5 years (5!?) for a bar fight. Yeah, that was violent. Punches were thrown. No one died, no one lost teeth, and there was no coma, etc. 5 freaking years. And he did all of it.

What did he do in jail? He learned how to sell drugs. He was the pot supplier "inside". Now? Coincidentally to this thread, tomorrow he reports for a 3.5 year term to a federal pen. What did he do? Well, the FBI and Homeland security nabbed him. Y'see, the cocaine he was selling was "tracked" somehow. It came from overseas (enter Homeland Security) and then moved from Florida to VA (enter FBI). They wanted him to turn state's witness, and he would not. He would not give up his supplier. (Now, recognize that this is his side of the story as told to me, but get a load of what follows). He told me that during negotiations with his atty and the prosecution... he got an email with a file attachment. It was a zip file. Dummy that he is, he opened it, and opened the zip file. What was it? It was kiddie porn. He instantly deleted all. He tells me this was forensically provable by his side. I know this guy. He is not a kiddie creep. He has a daughter. And...he's always had a "talent" (penchant) for women who are a lot hotter than what you'd think he was capable of landing (he's classicly the bad boy from the ladder theory). The guy likes women. Not kids. This, I know. So... negotiation time. "Now we have you on charges for receiving child porn. Turn over your supplier" He said no. So, now he's going away for 3.5 years.

Our government (according to this guy, and oddly ...I believe him on some levels) is having kiddie porn sent to plea bargainers, and then charging them with receipt of said porn? Really?

Now, should he go to jail for selling coke? Yeah. He shouldn't be doing that. What's a fair sentence? He's a prior con who did 5 years for a 'violent' offense. Should child porn be tacked on to his rap sheet? I find that so hard to accept, knowing the guy. Oh. And for the record, he's white.

At the same time, there is a classic "deterrent vs. rehabilitation" Argument. Punitive versus rehabilitative. Jail is not rehabilitative, for the most part. The cut50 people say jails are failing. Failing at rehab, or failing at deterrence, or both?

What do you do with the bad guys? Let them stay out and keep dealing coke and starting bar fights? I can't see where we benefit as a society from that. They say it is costing $80 billion to incarcerate our prison population. That's a sunk cost. What they cannot calculate is the cost to society of not having prisons.

I know another guy. I think his sentence is about 2 years into a 5 year (or was it 10? I can't remember) pull. His crime? White collar embezzlement and fraud. This guy stole peoples' retirement savings. Stole from the Boy Scouts, even. (again, a white guy). What do you do with him? Is he a danger to society now? Well... he stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from innocent good people. Would he do it again? I dunno...his schemes ran course over years and years. Nonviolent..but is he a threat to peoples' peace and rights? He was. Now he's in jail and isn't. Would cut50 just let him out?
Those are good examples for discussion. For one, it isn't an honest exercise, in my opinion, to approach this by presenting a case and asking "Would Cut50 let him out"? THe concept is that there are definitely people in jail that don't need to be. FOr example, when, due to third strike sentencing or some other combination of legal maneuvering, a guy that sells pot is in for a loooong stretch. There is no real rehabilitation - as you noted they just learn to sell more drugs or better drugs. The concept is a process by which these cases can be reviewed and people, who don't pose an obvious threat, get the opportunity to be released. A process buy which we don't lock up everyone (and that $80M isn't a sunk cost if you don't incarcerate so many people). A process for reintegrating people back into society with a hope for success to reduce recidivism. THat's at the core.
You do realize you have to work at it to commit 3 felonies, but again, how many goof ups are you handing out? To me, 3 felonies would be an ok number as I said you have to work at it to be convicted of 3 felonies. As for your rehabilitation theory the only way an individual will decide to stop breaking laws is if the individual stops doing that behavior, no amount of talking to him/her will "fix" that.
Actually helping someone to not have to go back to the old behaviors will fix that. AFter someone comes out of prison, having served the sentence, they are still effectively sentenced in today's world. It's harder to get employment because 1) the record and 2) the system leaves them no better when they come out than when they came in (generally speaking).[/quote

Humans have to change their own behavior, nobody can do it for them except the human. Yes for instance rehab for substance abuse may help them but their success rate is not good. IF the human involve WANTS TO CHANGE then change happens, otherwise it does not. As for yes once getting out it is tougher on your life..... no excrement. Thus the deterrent of not committing crimes to start with that gets you a prison break on your resume. I assume you only hire ex cons? right?
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by awesome guy »

Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote: Well, there's the rub.
We are failing at that now. What makes these social justice warriors think we'll do it better with so many more people released "all at once" (meaning, over 10 yrs)? That's quite a lump for a snake to swallow, and one that the snake hasn't been successful with much at all yet. The core notion of preventing recidivism has largely failed. Justice changed over a bit in the 1960s to more of a "rehabilitative" model from a punitive one. Well, that's not working.

And I fully expected jokes (a bit disappointed, really) to the tune of "who the hell is riverguy running around with, anyways!???"
Exactly - the punitive model isn't working. Recidivism isn't as easy and one has to accept the concept of forgiveness (and we are really bad at that as a society - look at Michael Vick) to make it work. It's hard but that isn't a reason not to do it because the alternative is only going to get more expensive and less effective.
We left the punitive model 50 years ago.
No we didn't. Our current model is punitive.
Well, we're at an impasse, then.
I see things as our having left the punitive for the rehabilitative, that failing, so even more rehabilitative focus being asked for.
Like many of our "social justice movements" asking for more of a failing policy just fails.
http://townhall.com/columnists/thomasso ... /page/full
If we actually had a rehabilitative process, this wouldn't have happened:

Image

So how about one that actually works?
You should learn the terms you're arguing with. Incarceration isn't a synonym for punishment or a punitive process.
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RiverguyVT
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by RiverguyVT »

If we actually had a rehabilitative process, this wouldn't have happened:
Or, if jail was truly more punitive, people would be sure not to make decisions leading them to go to jail..

The spike coincides with a movement w/in the penal system to be "rehabilitative" rather than punitive.
Yeah. More people go to jail. Why? It doesn't totally suck like it did 300 years ago.

Your graph made my point.

(please allow me some melodrama)
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by Florida Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:Humans have to change their own behavior, nobody can do it for them except the human. Yes for instance rehab for substance abuse may help them but their success rate is not good. IF the human involve WANTS TO CHANGE then change happens, otherwise it does not. As for yes once getting out it is tougher on your life..... no excrement. Thus the deterrent of not committing crimes to start with that gets you a prison break on your resume. I assume you only hire ex cons? right?
I'm glad you are offering the solutions you accused me of not offering.

Please notice you ONCE AGAIN come back to "JUST DON'T COMMIT CRIMES" which suggests you believe the law is perfect as designed and prosecution is perfect as designed. Again, if that's what you believe, just say it and bow out of the discussion. I seriously, nor does anyone else, need to hear your position that people just shouldn't commit crimes. We get it. You don't need to say it again.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by Uprising »

The "spike" is from the adoption of broken windows policies.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by RiverguyVT »

Fox Butterfield, Is That You?
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by Uprising »

Here's an interesting story for this discussion:
Image
Pictured in the middle, holding the Thirty Years study (he previously linked for "adult conversation"), is our very own USN.

The Alabama Justice Project has obtained documents that reveal a Dothan Police Department’s Internal Affairs investigation was covered up by the district attorney. A group of up to a dozen police officers on a specialized narcotics team were found to have planted drugs and weapons on young black men for years. They were supervised at the time by Lt. Steve Parrish, current Dothan Police Chief, and Sgt. Andy Hughes, current Asst. Director of Homeland Security for the State of Alabama. All of the officers reportedly were members of a Neoconfederate organization that the Southern Poverty Law Center labels “racial extremists.” The group has advocated for blacks to “return” to Africa, published that the civil rights movement is really a Jewish conspiracy, and that blacks have lower IQ’s. Both Parrish and Hughes held leadership positions in the group and are pictured above holding a confederate battle flag at one of the club’s secret meetings.
http://henrycountyreport.com/blog/2015/ ... complicit/
Looks like this group hangs out in the same far corners of the internet reading Rushton's work as some of the racism realist folks here.
Don't worry, I'm sure this is just an isolated incident. Wait... that probably would worry some of you.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by cwtcr hokie »

Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:Humans have to change their own behavior, nobody can do it for them except the human. Yes for instance rehab for substance abuse may help them but their success rate is not good. IF the human involve WANTS TO CHANGE then change happens, otherwise it does not. As for yes once getting out it is tougher on your life..... no excrement. Thus the deterrent of not committing crimes to start with that gets you a prison break on your resume. I assume you only hire ex cons? right?
I'm glad you are offering the solutions you accused me of not offering.

Please notice you ONCE AGAIN come back to "JUST DON'T COMMIT CRIMES" which suggests you believe the law is perfect as designed and prosecution is perfect as designed. Again, if that's what you believe, just say it and bow out of the discussion. I seriously, nor does anyone else, need to hear your position that people just shouldn't commit crimes. We get it. You don't need to say it again.
except my position would mean there are no prisons, no need for them. I know I know, personal responsibility should never be discussed, my bad so sad
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by Florida Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:except my position would mean there are no prisons, no need for them. I know I know, personal responsibility should never be discussed, my bad so sad
Please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, show me where I, or anyone for that matter, have said that there is no need for personal responsibility.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by 133743Hokie »

Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
I advanced a solution, you got nothing except "its broke"
Holy crapballs. I well try one more time. THE CUT50 PROGRAM PURPOSES WHAT CHANGES SHOULD TAKE PLACE. I AGREE WITH WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED. READ THE CUT50 SITE FOR DETAILS.
I checked out the site, saw lots of petitions and bitching about how mean we are to criminal scum bags but very little in actual suggestions, thus why I asked you to summarize what laws were being done away with. You are not able to do that tho so hard to have a discussion and sorry the back forth cat fight you want to have with AG is not my style.
Under Take ACtion from the site:

COMPREHENSIVE JUSTICE AND MENTAL HEALTH ACT
We believe there is a unique opportunity to pass comprehensive, bipartisan criminal justice reforms in 2015.

This month, talk turned into action as Members of Congress, in both the House and the Senate, joined together to introduce the Comprehensive Justice and Mental Health Act (CJMHA). With 26 Democrats and 21 Republicans co-sponsoring the bill, it boasts strong bipartisan support.

The legislation, introduced by U.S. Senators Al Franken (D-MN) and John Cornyn (R-TX) and Congressmen Doug Collins (R-GA) and Bobby Scott (D-VA) aims to improve responses to people with mental illnesses in the criminal justice system by supporting and enhancing law enforcement training, mental health and veterans treatment courts, resources for corrections systems, and other collaborative approaches.

Half of all people killed by police suffer from mental illness and about 25% of our jails and prisons are filled with non-violent offenders who suffer from schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or major depression. Jails and prisons hold ten times as many individuals with mental illness than hospitals and are often the largest providers of mental health services.

We must tell Congress that our jails and prisons are not mental health facilities and should not be treated as such. The #CJMHA would help fund alternatives to incarceration for the mentally ill and expand training for law enforcement so they can better respond to emergencies involving someone with a mental health crisis.
Unfortunately we have done away with mental health facilities. It is considered bad form to commit people today. I agree that they don't belong in prison, but we need to open back up the asylums to get them off the street. And we need to get even more off the street than currently running thru the justice system.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by cwtcr hokie »

Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:except my position would mean there are no prisons, no need for them. I know I know, personal responsibility should never be discussed, my bad so sad
Please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, show me where I, or anyone for that matter, have said that there is no need for personal responsibility.
good to see you agree that people can CHOOSE not to commit crimes (that get them in prison)
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by Florida Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:except my position would mean there are no prisons, no need for them. I know I know, personal responsibility should never be discussed, my bad so sad
Please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, show me where I, or anyone for that matter, have said that there is no need for personal responsibility.
good to see you agree that people can CHOOSE not to commit crimes (that get them in prison)
Now, if only we could get you to see that the issue is SLIGHTLY more complicated than that. That, perhaps, our laws are flawed or, in the least, our methods and manner of prosecution are. I won't hold my breath though.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by HokieJoe »

Uprising wrote:Here's an interesting story for this discussion:
Image
Pictured in the middle, holding the Thirty Years study (he previously linked for "adult conversation"), is our very own USN.

The Alabama Justice Project has obtained documents that reveal a Dothan Police Department’s Internal Affairs investigation was covered up by the district attorney. A group of up to a dozen police officers on a specialized narcotics team were found to have planted drugs and weapons on young black men for years. They were supervised at the time by Lt. Steve Parrish, current Dothan Police Chief, and Sgt. Andy Hughes, current Asst. Director of Homeland Security for the State of Alabama. All of the officers reportedly were members of a Neoconfederate organization that the Southern Poverty Law Center labels “racial extremists.” The group has advocated for blacks to “return” to Africa, published that the civil rights movement is really a Jewish conspiracy, and that blacks have lower IQ’s. Both Parrish and Hughes held leadership positions in the group and are pictured above holding a confederate battle flag at one of the club’s secret meetings.
http://henrycountyreport.com/blog/2015/ ... complicit/
Looks like this group hangs out in the same far corners of the internet reading Rushton's work as some of the racism realist folks here.
Don't worry, I'm sure this is just an isolated incident. Wait... that probably would worry some of you.

Nothing you or anyone in this thread has provided anything which proves "racism" is the disproportionate reason for why black people are incarcerated at higher rates. Again, some of the arrest are likely attributable to racism. Is it the predominant reason? I VERY much doubt that is the case. That's just scapegoating in light of basic demographics.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by HokieFanDC »

RiverguyVT wrote:
If we actually had a rehabilitative process, this wouldn't have happened:
Or, if jail was truly more punitive, people would be sure not to make decisions leading them to go to jail..

The spike coincides with a movement w/in the penal system to be "rehabilitative" rather than punitive.
Yeah. More people go to jail. Why? It doesn't totally suck like it did 300 years ago.

Your graph made my point.

(please allow me some melodrama)

^^^This^^^. Prisons should be more like chain gangs, than high schools, or colleges.
They can certainly learn skills, and should, but they should also be doing some sort of labor, without pay, that is a benefit to society, while in prison.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by cwtcr hokie »

Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:except my position would mean there are no prisons, no need for them. I know I know, personal responsibility should never be discussed, my bad so sad
Please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, show me where I, or anyone for that matter, have said that there is no need for personal responsibility.
good to see you agree that people can CHOOSE not to commit crimes (that get them in prison)
Now, if only we could get you to see that the issue is SLIGHTLY more complicated than that. That, perhaps, our laws are flawed or, in the least, our methods and manner of prosecution are. I won't hold my breath though.
OK back to it, WHICH laws are flawed, how many times does a person have to be convicted of a felony to actually spend some real time in prison? What exactly is wrong with the prosecution of someone?

A conversation would mean you advance your ideas of how to "fix" your perceived issues btw
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by USN_Hokie »

Bureau of Justice Statistics: 57% of violent crime offenders released after serving less than 3 years in prison.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp16.pdf

We don't need less incarceration in this country, we need more. Prison doesn't rehabilitate; crime is reduced by keeping criminals unable to function in society off the streets.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by 133743Hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:Bureau of Justice Statistics: 57% of violent crime offenders released after serving less than 3 years in prison.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp16.pdf

We don't need less incarceration in this country, we need more. Prison doesn't rehabilitate; crime is reduced by keeping criminals unable to function in society off the streets.
Sentences need to match the crime and the danger to society that the crimanal poses.
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Re: Anyone familiar with #cut50?

Post by cwtcr hokie »

133743Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:Bureau of Justice Statistics: 57% of violent crime offenders released after serving less than 3 years in prison.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp16.pdf

We don't need less incarceration in this country, we need more. Prison doesn't rehabilitate; crime is reduced by keeping criminals unable to function in society off the streets.
Sentences need to match the crime and the danger to society that the crimanal poses.
local guy the other day that got busted had been in jail like 35 times in the last decade or something nutty like that....sorry, get that moron off the planet
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