Left wing coordinated attack on "prayers" for San Bernardino

[HokieFanDC]

No, what I said is that there are probably people who have solutions in mind, that are not getting any airtime, because they don't fit the simpleton left/right agendas that do get airtime.

Here are 2 simple questions for you.

1) Do you think there is a solution to the mass shootings that we are having?
2) If you're answer to #1 is yes, what do you think that solution is?

To make another budget analogy, this is like arguing over pork barrel spending. In the end of the day, "Mass shootings" (like pork barrel spending) are statistically irrelevant. This need to find a "solution" is an irrational reaction to saturation by the media. So, I would reject the premise of your question (of course there's a solution: confiscate all weapons and anything pointy from every person, move every person in US to internment camps where they're guarded by armed guards to prevent any violence. How many "mass shootings" have occurred in prison?)

I don't think it's an irrational reaction. When you can't go to a holiday party without feeling 100% sure some maniac isn't going to kill half the people there, it's not irrational to have a strong reaction to it.
It's not like Chicago, where criminals are killing other criminals all the time. The solution for most people, is to avoid areas where criminals are.
When people are getting killed at schools, and office places, in large numbers, then something is very wrong.

When you live in a free society, you are never 100% safe. That is part of the price of living in a free society. Sort of like USN said, I bet they don't have many mass shootings in North Korea. Would you trade our lifestyle for theirs?

Never said anything about 100% safe. But, there's a wide spectrum, and we're trending the wrong way right now.
Heck, the answer could be that the world has changed, and there are a lot more crazy nuts out there, so the world is a more dangerous place, and we need to learn to deal with it. Maybe the population needs to learn to be more aware.
There are probably lots of little things that need to be done, but I don't buy that what happened yesterday has to be the price of living in a free society.

[UpstateSCHokie]

Again, we just disagree on that issue. But, I'm fine with less restrictive open carry laws. I'm not uncomfortable with people carrying guns, but obviously, lots of people are.

Since people are going to carry guns, and there's really not much you can do about, why not be in favor of more gun training? Why not offer gun training and safety classes in high schools? If owning and keeping guns is a Constitutional right, it seems reasonable to expect our educational system to provide the means to teach responsible gun ownership.

[VoiceOfReason]

Since we have returned to our usual right-wing, NRA-sponsored garbage about reducing gun violence by arming the population... let's just imagine how that would work.

Let's imagine a company holiday is not a gun free zone and employees are free to open carry. And let's assume that a terrorist group shows up to cause mayhem. Don't assume the terrorists won't show up because people are armed. These terrorists know they are about to die anyway... so the threat of being shot does not scare them.

So there you are... with your weapon... and people open fire. What do you do? Do you wait for a clear shot at the shooter? Do you take a shot at the shooter if there is one or two people that could catch your collateral damage... figuring even if you do take out a co-worker or two... that's better than 14 dead? Do you hide in your office, gun pointed at the door, ready to shoot the first thing that comes in? And if your douchebag boss who keeps passing you up for promotion is in the line of fire... do you "miss a little to the left" on purpose?

Point being... when NRA sycophants keep calling for more open carry laws and a more armed population, what they are really saying is "the best way to reduce gun violence is to have more untrained, unaccountable people defending their own self interests with guns".

Here is another one for you. Let's say you're in a shooting scene with your family. And you see that the best chance for your families survival is to escape quickly... but you need to lay down cover fire in the direction of the shooter and the crowd in order to do so? The shooter is heading right in your families direction... so if you don't escape now... your family will soon be in direct danger. What do you do? And do you think other people might do in that same situation?

NRA: "The best defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

Reality: Who decides which shooter is the "good guy". What's good for me may not be good for you!

[awesome guy]

I'm not coming here with a leftist solution to the problem. What I advocate is an ideology-free and NRA-free analysis of the problem, honest discussion on what problems can be solved and what cannot... followed by bold action. Just as an aside... does anybody here really believe statistics on gun violence that are produced by the NRA are in any way meaningful and accurate?

You're the quintessential leftist. The NRA gets their data from the FBI,local governments, etc. They're very credible, thusly your attempt to dismiss them.

[UpstateSCHokie]

Since we have returned to our usual right-wing, NRA-sponsored garbage about reducing gun violence by arming the population... let's just imagine how that would work.

Let's imagine a company holiday is not a gun free zone and employees are free to open carry. And let's assume that a terrorist group shows up to cause mayhem. Don't assume the terrorists won't show up because people are armed. These terrorists know they are about to die anyway... so the threat of being shot does not scare them.

So there you are... with your weapon... and people open fire. What do you do? Do you wait for a clear shot at the shooter? Do you take a shot at the shooter if there is one or two people that could catch your collateral damage... figuring even if you do take out a co-worker or two... that's better than 14 dead? Do you hide in your office, gun pointed at the door, ready to shoot the first thing that comes in? And if your douchebag boss who keeps passing you up for promotion is in the line of fire... do you "miss a little to the left" on purpose?

Point being... when NRA sycophants keep calling for more open carry laws and a more armed population, what they are really saying is "the best way to reduce gun violence is to have more untrained, unaccountable people defending their own self interests with guns".

Here is another one for you. Let's say you're in a shooting scene with your family. And you see that the best chance for your families survival is to escape... but you need to lay down cover fire in the direction of the shooter and the crowd in order to do so? What do you do? And do you think other people might do in that same situation?

NRA: "The best defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

Reality: Who decides which shooter is the "good guy". What's good for me may not be good for you!

Speaking of the NRA, can someone tell me why we don't provide them with federal tax dollars while we do provide tax dollars to Planned Parenthood? Do leftists not realize its just as offensive to those of us on the right to give PP our tax dollars as it would be to them if we gave tax dollars to the NRA?

[VoiceOfReason]

I'm not coming here with a leftist solution to the problem. What I advocate is an ideology-free and NRA-free analysis of the problem, honest discussion on what problems can be solved and what cannot... followed by bold action. Just as an aside... does anybody here really believe statistics on gun violence that are produced by the NRA are in any way meaningful and accurate?

You're the quintessential leftist. The NRA gets their data from the FBI,local governments, etc. They're very credible, thusly your attempt to dismiss them.

Based on the links in your posts, you wouldn't know a credible source of data from a pile of elephant dung. So, no thanks on your opinions.

[VoiceOfReason]

Speaking of the NRA, can someone tell me why we don't provide them with federal tax dollars while we do provide tax dollars to Planned Parenthood? Do leftists not realize its just as offensive to those of us on the right to give PP our tax dollars as it would be to them if we gave tax dollars to the NRA?

Let's not change the subject with a poor analogy. The NRA exists for one purpose - to protect the interests of gun and ammunition manufacturers. I think the feds should fund independent research on gun violence... in fact, that issue has been raised in Congress before, but the NRA opposed it. Wonder why?

[HokieFanDC]

Again, we just disagree on that issue. But, I'm fine with less restrictive open carry laws. I'm not uncomfortable with people carrying guns, but obviously, lots of people are.

Since people are going to carry guns, and there's really not much you can do about, why not be in favor of more gun training? Why not offer gun training and safety classes in high schools? If owning and keeping guns is a Constitutional right, it seems reasonable to expect our educational system to provide the means to teach responsible gun ownership.

Gun training has always been my first suggestion. Not only would it make gun owners better gun owners, but I also think it would act as a deterrent to people who want to buy guns for nefarious reasons. Not sure about the HS angle (but not completely against the idea), but I think everyone should pass a gun safety and training class, to own one.

[VoiceOfReason]

Gun training has always been my first suggestion. Not only would it make gun owners better gun owners, but I also think it would act as a deterrent to people who want to buy guns for nefarious reasons. Not sure about the HS angle (but not completely against the idea), but I think everyone should pass a gun safety and training class, to own one.

So is that a gun restriction you just proposed? Require a gun safety course to own a gun? What about the Second Amendment?

I'm all for creating more responsible gun owners... but I don't put much faith in training classes. Most people on here work for companies that require a non-harassment training class... and based on some attitudes here I don't think the training has taken hold

[HokieJoe]

Oh please. The left wing is not attacking prayers. They are attacking the idea that sending prayers and condolences, but refusing to have any kind of conversation on why this keeps happening or what can be done to reduce these occurrences... is useless.

Hey, I have an idea... How about we tell the left to STFU? Then we tell the right to STFU? Then we tell the NRA to STFU? Then we get law enforcement together and see what ideas they have?

Horseshiite. You don't want to have a conversation. You just want to flap your gums about how open minded and inclusive you are. Here's the sticky bit though: You're okay with limiting gun owners rights, but the very mention of profiling would make you pee your reactionary, lwnj spankys. In your mind, the only solution is limiting gun ownership. That's why you get a many people here, in so many words, dismissing you as FOS.

[HokieFanDC]

Gun training has always been my first suggestion. Not only would it make gun owners better gun owners, but I also think it would act as a deterrent to people who want to buy guns for nefarious reasons. Not sure about the HS angle (but not completely against the idea), but I think everyone should pass a gun safety and training class, to own one.

So is that a gun restriction you just proposed? Require a gun safety course to own a gun? What about the Second Amendment?

I'm all for creating more responsible gun owners... but I don't put much faith in training classes. Most people on here work for companies that require a non-harassment training class... and based on some attitudes here I don't think the training has taken hold

I'm not talking about a written test. I'm talking about a hands-on handling class - loading, firing, maintenance, etc.
And while I know you despise everything about the NRA, a lot of the people at the NRA are the most knowledgeable of anyone on the subject of guns. They also have great training classes.

http://training.nra.org/

[VoiceOfReason]

Oh please. The left wing is not attacking prayers. They are attacking the idea that sending prayers and condolences, but refusing to have any kind of conversation on why this keeps happening or what can be done to reduce these occurrences... is useless.

Hey, I have an idea... How about we tell the left to STFU? Then we tell the right to STFU? Then we tell the NRA to STFU? Then we get law enforcement together and see what ideas they have?

Horseshiite. You don't want to have a conversation. You just want to flap your gums about how open minded and inclusive you are. Here's the sticky bit though: You're okay with limiting gun owners rights, but the very mention of profiling would make you pee your reactionary, lwnj spankys. In your mind, the only solution is limiting gun ownership. That's why you get a many people here, in so many words, dismissing you as FOS.

HokieJoe... with all due respect... go blow yourself. You don't know the first thing about me. Nor did you care to read what I wrote. I don't care one whit about being open minded or inclusive, nor do I care what people think about me on those terms. And yes... as hard as it may be for you to believe... I do want an honest conversation. Because, on the subject of guns and mass shootings... I believe the following things to be true:

1) The left is not addressing the problem with their talk of gun show loopholes and assault weapon bans. None of this would solve the problem.
2) The right is not addressing the problem with their talk of eliminating gun free zones, arming the general population and open carry all over the place. None of that would solve the problem and very likely would make things worse.
3) The NRA is a powerful lobbying group... that puts the interests of gun/ammo makers over the lives of American citizens.

If you read my posts... you would see I don't have the answer. But I believe there is an answer... if all the usual suspects quit sending out their memes intended to ridicule half the population.

If my motive are at all at fault... perhaps it's my naivete in thinking a message board was the place to look for a conversation. I forgot dopes like you talk before they read

[awesome guy]

I'm not coming here with a leftist solution to the problem. What I advocate is an ideology-free and NRA-free analysis of the problem, honest discussion on what problems can be solved and what cannot... followed by bold action. Just as an aside... does anybody here really believe statistics on gun violence that are produced by the NRA are in any way meaningful and accurate?

You're the quintessential leftist. The NRA gets their data from the FBI,local governments, etc. They're very credible, thusly your attempt to dismiss them.

Based on the links in your posts, you wouldn't know a credible source of data from a pile of elephant dung. So, no thanks on your opinions.

There you go trying to think again. It never ends well for you.

[HokieJoe]

Oh please. The left wing is not attacking prayers. They are attacking the idea that sending prayers and condolences, but refusing to have any kind of conversation on why this keeps happening or what can be done to reduce these occurrences... is useless.

Hey, I have an idea... How about we tell the left to STFU? Then we tell the right to STFU? Then we tell the NRA to STFU? Then we get law enforcement together and see what ideas they have?

Horseshiite. You don't want to have a conversation. You just want to flap your gums about how open minded and inclusive you are. Here's the sticky bit though: You're okay with limiting gun owners rights, but the very mention of profiling would make you pee your reactionary, lwnj spankys. In your mind, the only solution is limiting gun ownership. That's why you get a many people here, in so many words, dismissing you as FOS.

HokieJoe... with all due respect... go blow yourself. You don't know the first thing about me. Nor did you care to read what I wrote. I don't care one whit about being open minded or inclusive, nor do I care what people think about me on those terms. And yes... as hard as it may be for you to believe... I do want an honest conversation. Because, on the subject of guns and mass shootings... I believe the following things to be true:

1) The left is not addressing the problem with their talk of gun show loopholes and assault weapon bans. None of this would solve the problem.
2) The right is not addressing the problem with their talk of eliminating gun free zones, arming the general population and open carry all over the place. None of that would solve the problem and very likely would make things worse.
3) The NRA is a powerful lobbying group... that puts the interests of gun/ammo makers over the lives of American citizens.

If you read my posts... you would see I don't have the answer. But I believe there is an answer... if all the usual suspects quit sending out their memes intended to ridicule half the population.

If my motive are at all at fault... perhaps it's my naivete in thinking a message board was the place to look for a conversation. I forgot dopes like you talk before they read

Hmm, sounds similar to the response I got about Obama and your 401k.

[cwtcr hokie]

I want to find a way to have fewer incidents like the one that happened yesterday. I don't have a solution, and as far as I can tell, no one I've heard has one. That doesn't mean that someone out there doesn't have a solution.[/quote]

Until you can either have enough knowledge on each person in this country to know they are planning a terrorist attack, and know the exact time and place, you will not stop them with more laws. And for the other category of mass incidents, a person can be totally sane for 23 hours one day, and lose his/her stuff in the 24th hour, how in the world are you going to know when that occurs?

The reason I say more than a chair to defend myself with is there is no solution for figuring out what people will do every second of the day or night, and the guns are already out on US soil. The smartest people on the planet can't "Fix" this issue as no human on the planet can tell what another will do next.

[cwtcr hokie]

No, what I said is that there are probably people who have solutions in mind, that are not getting any airtime, because they don't fit the simpleton left/right agendas that do get airtime.

Here are 2 simple questions for you.

1) Do you think there is a solution to the mass shootings that we are having?
2) If you're answer to #1 is yes, what do you think that solution is?

To make another budget analogy, this is like arguing over pork barrel spending. In the end of the day, "Mass shootings" (like pork barrel spending) are statistically irrelevant. This need to find a "solution" is an irrational reaction to saturation by the media. So, I would reject the premise of your question (of course there's a solution: confiscate all weapons and anything pointy from every person, move every person in US to internment camps where they're guarded by armed guards to prevent any violence. How many "mass shootings" have occurred in prison?)

I don't think it's an irrational reaction. When you can't go to a holiday party without feeling 100% sure some maniac isn't going to kill half the people there, it's not irrational to have a strong reaction to it.
It's not like Chicago, where criminals are killing other criminals all the time. The solution for most people, is to avoid areas where criminals are.
When people are getting killed at schools, and office places, in large numbers, then something is very wrong.

yes a trained terrorist picked a soft target, sorta like what happened in Paris

[cwtcr hokie]

Again, we just disagree on that issue. But, I'm fine with less restrictive open carry laws. I'm not uncomfortable with people carrying guns, but obviously, lots of people are.[/quote]

if lots of law abiding citizens were carrying then our crime rate would be much less and the mass part of these incidents would be much less

[Major Kong]

I propose that we chose a location in the USA that would certainly benefit from an honest discussion of gun violence...a social experiment so to speak.

I nominate Chicago...I mean hellsbells nations strictest gun control laws haven't worked there.

[VoiceOfReason]

Hmm, sounds similar to the response I got about Obama and your 401k.

I thought the same thing. So we agree. You are consistent in mouthing off about the left without actually reading what somebody else writes on any number of topics. Congrats!

[awesome guy]

Hmm, sounds similar to the response I got about Obama and your 401k.

I thought the same thing. So we agree. You are consistent in mouthing off about the left without actually reading what somebody else writes on any number of topics. Congrats!

[emoji90]

[awesome guy]

Oh please. The left wing is not attacking prayers. They are attacking the idea that sending prayers and condolences, but refusing to have any kind of conversation on why this keeps happening or what can be done to reduce these occurrences... is useless.

Hey, I have an idea... How about we tell the left to STFU? Then we tell the right to STFU? Then we tell the NRA to STFU? Then we get law enforcement together and see what ideas they have?

Horseshiite. You don't want to have a conversation. You just want to flap your gums about how open minded and inclusive you are. Here's the sticky bit though: You're okay with limiting gun owners rights, but the very mention of profiling would make you pee your reactionary, lwnj spankys. In your mind, the only solution is limiting gun ownership. That's why you get a many people here, in so many words, dismissing you as FOS.

HokieJoe... with all due respect... go blow yourself. You don't know the first thing about me. Nor did you care to read what I wrote. I don't care one whit about being open minded or inclusive, nor do I care what people think about me on those terms. And yes... as hard as it may be for you to believe... I do want an honest conversation. Because, on the subject of guns and mass shootings... I believe the following things to be true:

1) The left is not addressing the problem with their talk of gun show loopholes and assault weapon bans. None of this would solve the problem.
2) The right is not addressing the problem with their talk of eliminating gun free zones, arming the general population and open carry all over the place. None of that would solve the problem and very likely would make things worse.
3) The NRA is a powerful lobbying group... that puts the interests of gun/ammo makers over the lives of American citizens.

If you read my posts... you would see I don't have the answer. But I believe there is an answer... if all the usual suspects quit sending out their memes intended to ridicule half the population.

If my motive are at all at fault... perhaps it's my naivete in thinking a message board was the place to look for a conversation. I forgot dopes like you talk before they read

He has you pegged, you're not for an open debate, just to troll and show your considerable ass.

[Hokie5150]

The NRA exists for one purpose - to protect the interests of gun and ammunition manufacturers.

That is a biased, bigoted opinion.

[Hokie5150]

I'm not coming here with a leftist solution to the problem. What I advocate is an ideology-free and NRA-free analysis of the problem, honest discussion on what problems can be solved and what cannot... followed by bold action. Just as an aside... does anybody here really believe statistics on gun violence that are produced by the NRA are in any way meaningful and accurate?

And yet come here with ideological driven diatribes.

[ElbertoHokie]

Oh please. The left wing is not attacking prayers. They are attacking the idea that sending prayers and condolences, but refusing to have any kind of conversation on why this keeps happening or what can be done to reduce these occurrences... is useless.

Hey, I have an idea... How about we tell the left to STFU? Then we tell the right to STFU? Then we tell the NRA to STFU? Then we get law enforcement together and see what ideas they have?

Horseshiite. You don't want to have a conversation. You just want to flap your gums about how open minded and inclusive you are. Here's the sticky bit though: You're okay with limiting gun owners rights, but the very mention of profiling would make you pee your reactionary, lwnj spankys. In your mind, the only solution is limiting gun ownership. That's why you get a many people here, in so many words, dismissing you as FOS.

HokieJoe... with all due respect... go blow yourself. You don't know the first thing about me. Nor did you care to read what I wrote. I don't care one whit about being open minded or inclusive, nor do I care what people think about me on those terms. And yes... as hard as it may be for you to believe... I do want an honest conversation. Because, on the subject of guns and mass shootings... I believe the following things to be true:

1) The left is not addressing the problem with their talk of gun show loopholes and assault weapon bans. None of this would solve the problem.
2) The right is not addressing the problem with their talk of eliminating gun free zones, arming the general population and open carry all over the place. None of that would solve the problem and very likely would make things worse.
3) The NRA is a powerful lobbying group... that puts the interests of gun/ammo makers over the lives of American citizens.

If you read my posts... you would see I don't have the answer. But I believe there is an answer... if all the usual suspects quit sending out their memes intended to ridicule half the population.

If my motive are at all at fault... perhaps it's my naivete in thinking a message board was the place to look for a conversation. I forgot dopes like you talk before they read

He has you pegged, you're not for an open debate, just to troll and show your considerable ass.

I'm not saying anyones an ass. But I wouldn't say you're up for open debate. Being up for open debate means that you're willing to compromise. You're willing to compromise on gun ownership and the current laws? Everything I've seen you say speaks to the contrary. You seem to see this as a black and white issue(even though it's very nuanced) and whoever doesn't share your exact opinion on the idea is an idiot. Am i right?

[cwtcr hokie]

Oh please. The left wing is not attacking prayers. They are attacking the idea that sending prayers and condolences, but refusing to have any kind of conversation on why this keeps happening or what can be done to reduce these occurrences... is useless.

Hey, I have an idea... How about we tell the left to STFU? Then we tell the right to STFU? Then we tell the NRA to STFU? Then we get law enforcement together and see what ideas they have?

Horseshiite. You don't want to have a conversation. You just want to flap your gums about how open minded and inclusive you are. Here's the sticky bit though: You're okay with limiting gun owners rights, but the very mention of profiling would make you pee your reactionary, lwnj spankys. In your mind, the only solution is limiting gun ownership. That's why you get a many people here, in so many words, dismissing you as FOS.

HokieJoe... with all due respect... go blow yourself. You don't know the first thing about me. Nor did you care to read what I wrote. I don't care one whit about being open minded or inclusive, nor do I care what people think about me on those terms. And yes... as hard as it may be for you to believe... I do want an honest conversation. Because, on the subject of guns and mass shootings... I believe the following things to be true:

1) The left is not addressing the problem with their talk of gun show loopholes and assault weapon bans. None of this would solve the problem.
2) The right is not addressing the problem with their talk of eliminating gun free zones, arming the general population and open carry all over the place. None of that would solve the problem and very likely would make things worse.
3) The NRA is a powerful lobbying group... that puts the interests of gun/ammo makers over the lives of American citizens.

If you read my posts... you would see I don't have the answer. But I believe there is an answer... if all the usual suspects quit sending out their memes intended to ridicule half the population.

If my motive are at all at fault... perhaps it's my naivete in thinking a message board was the place to look for a conversation. I forgot dopes like you talk before they read

He has you pegged, you're not for an open debate, just to troll and show your considerable ass.

I'm not saying anyones an ass. But I wouldn't say you're up for open debate. Being up for open debate means that you're willing to compromise. You're willing to compromise on gun ownership and the current laws? Everything I've seen you say speaks to the contrary. You seem to see this as a black and white issue(even though it's very nuanced) and whoever doesn't share your exact opinion on the idea is an idiot. Am i right?

There is no debate on gun ownership, it is a part of our laws since the founding of the country. What exactly is wrong with the multitude of current gun laws?