Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by CWHOKIECPA »

BG Hokie wrote:
Human nature as in a learned behavior or a behavior your born with? If it's a learned behavior, it could clearly change.
Yes, it could change, but the statistics have to change in order for that to happen.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by awesome guy »

BG Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:... I can't imagine the number of errors that took place by the one to two officers on the scene.
One-and-five-eighths cop? :P
BG Hokie wrote:I truly believe if the kid were white, he'd be alive, not because the officer is necessarily a bigot but because of subconscious bias on the perception of threat.
Yeah. Anecdotally, I know of a City of Richmond cop that was being charged by his (black) co-workers, internally through H.R., of racism against blacks. They had a hearing and everything. Allowed the accused cop to bring in character witnesses, to help prove the negative. Not only has he not stopped beating his wife, but she took the witness stand on his behalf. She's black. She assured City of Richmond Police H.R. that her white husband was not, in fact, racist against blacks. Further evidence was apparent as several mulatto children of his sat in the lobby.

I doubt this officer is a bigot, either.

Kid shouldn't have been running around with a gun.
At 12, I shouldn't have been running around with M-80s.
Great anecdote and one that clearly misses the point. Who said the officer is a bigot? I didn't and I don't necessarily think he is... I just think that it's likely the 12 year old was perceived to be more of a threat because he was black than if he were white. Is it that hard to understand?

People who are not racist, don't necessarily have the same reaction when they see people of different races? In this day and age, racism if you can even call it that, is more likely subconscious.
I think I was agreeing with you. That we both doubt the officer is a bigot. (hence, my "either"). You had come right out and said he wasn't.
It's a shirty situation, for sure. My anecdote was implying that maybe a black cop would've shot the kid, too.
Who knows?
I'd say there is a decent chance a black cop would have shot him too but probably lesser so... A impossible thing to assign probabilities to, for sure.

The issue more than anything is the way officers are trained. I remember on the old UWS someone linked an article about a black man with a machete in Seattle in the 1990's. The guy was crazy. The police talked to him and talked to him for minutes and minutes, maybe even hours. Eventually they distracted him, a cop came from behind risked his life and knocked the machete out of his hand, and they arrested him. Nowadays, that guy would be shot in 2 seconds... Anecdotal stuff for sure, but I think we need to get back to an era where citizens are given the benefit of the doubt for more than 1.5 seconds.

And if it were really a gun then we'd have a story of a white cop being killed by a black kid. That's what makes it self defense and not murder, as you stupidly claim. There was good reason to think the item in the belt was a gun and so it's easily self defense. Your annedote is stupid because a machete is useless unless in close range. The cops would behave the same now as they did then just as someone with a gun then would have been shot as they are now. In short, you're just making stuff up to support your dumb position.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by USN_Hokie »

Florida Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote: I've read the Moynihan report. No where does it say the answer is to indiscriminately shoot black kids because of the environment they were raised in makes them more likely to be violent.
Maybe you should read it again. The answer to stopping black kids from getting shot is to stop black kids from doing stupid stuff like walking through a park pointing (what looks like) a gun a people. They way to fix the violence, education, and poverty issue in the black community is through family. Fathers need to be dads and the government needs to stop incentivizing single moms.
Florida Hokie wrote:There are white kids without dads and white kids with dads that do stupid excrement too. THe difference is they are less likely to get shot by a cop because they aren't black.
There are white kids without dads. Those kids are just as disadvantaged - but it's not the epidemic that it is in the black community. Complicating matters is the fact that so many blacks live concentrated in urban communities.
Florida Hokie wrote:Kids with and without dad's do stupid excrement. That's what kids do. They are learning. Adults aren't supposed to kill them for it.

**** find a heart in your tired ass old man act.
No, that's a silly ignorant statement. Find a brain in your tired ass bleeding heart act.
I think he and BG are just against anti-authority. Or they're so racist that they would convict an innocent white man of murder just because they think the black kid has a hard life. IE, FloHo doesn't care about white people! I care about the law and justice. This cop did nothing criminal. That doesn't mean I don't feel bad for the kid or his parents, it means I'm not going to protest for the cop the be jailed or executed. You and CW are right and they are wrong about the parents. It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening. Not just from the kid running around the park and pointing the gun at people in the first place, but knowing how to act around authority figures. But the dad wasn't around to teach him this and who knows what the mom is up to. You can't blame the cop for defending his life from a perceived threat, you blame the kid for creating the perceived threat. And because of his age, that blame falls on the parents who weren't watching him as he menaced the park nor taught him basic respect or common sense. I get the feeling these two were also little assholes growing up and so naturally empathize with the punks.
I never said the cop should be convicted of murder.

You feel bad for the kid and his parents but you are going to blame them for the entire thing.

"It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening."

That's simplistic and wrong headed. There are literally THOUSANDS of examples of children that were raised "the right way" that went south. THat a black 12 year old kid was shot dead by police is a matter of many things:

1) Did the kid do something stupid? Yes.
2) Did the dispatcher do something stupid (not telling the cops that the caller said the suspect may be a kid)? Yes.
3) Did the cops act more aggressive than necessary? THat is up for debate. I know where you sit but I think they did and I think they did because the kid was black. That you and others have pointed out that, statistically the cop's defensiveness is supported, indicates that you agree the cops acted differently because the kid was black. BG and I both assert that a white kid in the same situation would have been afforded more time. Statistics may support the aggression but that doesn't make it right that a 12 year old kid is dead.
It's also the location and circumstances. You continue to ignore this after its been brought up repeatedly. I think a white 200lb kid in a hoody would have been shot in that Cleveland gazebo too.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by CWHOKIECPA »

BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Great anecdote and one that clearly misses the point. Who said the officer is a bigot? I didn't and I don't necessarily think he is... I just think that it's likely the 12 year old was perceived to be more of a threat because he was black than if he were white. Is it that hard to understand?
Are you saying he shouldn't have been perceived as a threat? Because statistically, the cop would be right to feel that way ( and before you say it, he was 5'7” 195lbs. He was not obviously a child).
The stats show that on the whole, blacks commit more violent crime. To be more cautious or skeptical of them makes sense. Everyone on earth does this. The police see what is out there everyday. They have way more of a feel for it than we do. I admit I would be less skeptical of an Asian person as far as violent crime goes. Even less than a white person, because as a whole they just don't seem to commit a lot of violent crime.
I feel like BG and Flo are arguing for policing in the US to be like a TSA checkpoint...where your 3yo niece gets the same pat down as Yoosef the Saudi national with baggy clothes. Nobody can be profiled, therefor everyone must be profiled. All responses must be the same...if a black kid with a gun gets shot, 66yo grandma needs to take a bullet too.
LOL, let me get this right. In this thread I assert my opinion that this kid would be alive if he were white to which the usual butt hurt commences. You were annoyed with the conjecture, if I remember correctly.

Later in this thread, you guys come around to agreeing with my entire premise as to why it's plausible that he would be alive if he were white. With nothing really left, you post this gem. LMAO, and you were the one annoyed with conjecture? Classic. You're actually a good poster, a stubborn son of a bitch, but a good poster. This has got to be your lamest moment of 2015. Congrats. If you want to get back in the real world and discuss what people are actually saying instead of making stuff up then let me know.
I have no problem with your premise. The problem is that you aren't telling why the young black man is more likely to get shot. It's not because of racism, in the vast majority of cases. It's because the demographic that you are dealing with can make you a little more on edge. It seems as if you just want to blame white cops. If you aren't doing that, fine.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by CWHOKIECPA »

Florida Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote: I've read the Moynihan report. No where does it say the answer is to indiscriminately shoot black kids because of the environment they were raised in makes them more likely to be violent.
Maybe you should read it again. The answer to stopping black kids from getting shot is to stop black kids from doing stupid stuff like walking through a park pointing (what looks like) a gun a people. They way to fix the violence, education, and poverty issue in the black community is through family. Fathers need to be dads and the government needs to stop incentivizing single moms.
Florida Hokie wrote:There are white kids without dads and white kids with dads that do stupid excrement too. THe difference is they are less likely to get shot by a cop because they aren't black.
There are white kids without dads. Those kids are just as disadvantaged - but it's not the epidemic that it is in the black community. Complicating matters is the fact that so many blacks live concentrated in urban communities.
Florida Hokie wrote:Kids with and without dad's do stupid excrement. That's what kids do. They are learning. Adults aren't supposed to kill them for it.

**** find a heart in your tired ass old man act.
No, that's a silly ignorant statement. Find a brain in your tired ass bleeding heart act.
I think he and BG are just against anti-authority. Or they're so racist that they would convict an innocent white man of murder just because they think the black kid has a hard life. IE, FloHo doesn't care about white people! I care about the law and justice. This cop did nothing criminal. That doesn't mean I don't feel bad for the kid or his parents, it means I'm not going to protest for the cop the be jailed or executed. You and CW are right and they are wrong about the parents. It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening. Not just from the kid running around the park and pointing the gun at people in the first place, but knowing how to act around authority figures. But the dad wasn't around to teach him this and who knows what the mom is up to. You can't blame the cop for defending his life from a perceived threat, you blame the kid for creating the perceived threat. And because of his age, that blame falls on the parents who weren't watching him as he menaced the park nor taught him basic respect or common sense. I get the feeling these two were also little assholes growing up and so naturally empathize with the punks.
I never said the cop should be convicted of murder.

You feel bad for the kid and his parents but you are going to blame them for the entire thing.

"It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening."

That's simplistic and wrong headed. There are literally THOUSANDS of examples of children that were raised "the right way" that went south. THat a black 12 year old kid was shot dead by police is a matter of many things:

1) Did the kid do something stupid? Yes.
2) Did the dispatcher do something stupid (not telling the cops that the caller said the suspect may be a kid)? Yes.
3) Did the cops act more aggressive than necessary? THat is up for debate. I know where you sit but I think they did and I think they did because the kid was black. That you and others have pointed out that, statistically the cop's defensiveness is supported, indicates that you agree the cops acted differently because the kid was black. BG and I both assert that a white kid in the same situation would have been afforded more time. Statistics may support the aggression but that doesn't make it right that a 12 year old kid is dead.
I'm not blaming them for the entire thing. I think multiple people are at fault. Could the cops have approached it in a different way? Yes. Could dispatch have done better? Yes. Could the kid have done better? Of course. Could the parents be better parents? Yes. This created a perfect storm for something bad to happen and it did.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by BG Hokie »

awesome guy wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote: I've read the Moynihan report. No where does it say the answer is to indiscriminately shoot black kids because of the environment they were raised in makes them more likely to be violent.
Maybe you should read it again. The answer to stopping black kids from getting shot is to stop black kids from doing stupid stuff like walking through a park pointing (what looks like) a gun a people. They way to fix the violence, education, and poverty issue in the black community is through family. Fathers need to be dads and the government needs to stop incentivizing single moms.
Florida Hokie wrote:There are white kids without dads and white kids with dads that do stupid excrement too. THe difference is they are less likely to get shot by a cop because they aren't black.
There are white kids without dads. Those kids are just as disadvantaged - but it's not the epidemic that it is in the black community. Complicating matters is the fact that so many blacks live concentrated in urban communities.
Florida Hokie wrote:Kids with and without dad's do stupid excrement. That's what kids do. They are learning. Adults aren't supposed to kill them for it.

**** find a heart in your tired ass old man act.
No, that's a silly ignorant statement. Find a brain in your tired ass bleeding heart act.
I think he and BG are just against anti-authority. Or they're so racist that they would convict an innocent white man of murder just because they think the black kid has a hard life. IE, FloHo doesn't care about white people! I care about the law and justice. This cop did nothing criminal. That doesn't mean I don't feel bad for the kid or his parents, it means I'm not going to protest for the cop the be jailed or executed. You and CW are right and they are wrong about the parents. It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening. Not just from the kid running around the park and pointing the gun at people in the first place, but knowing how to act around authority figures. But the dad wasn't around to teach him this and who knows what the mom is up to. You can't blame the cop for defending his life from a perceived threat, you blame the kid for creating the perceived threat. And because of his age, that blame falls on the parents who weren't watching him as he menaced the park nor taught him basic respect or common sense. I get the feeling these two were also little assholes growing up and so naturally empathize with the punks.
I never said the cop should be convicted of murder.

You feel bad for the kid and his parents but you are going to blame them for the entire thing.

"It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening."

That's simplistic and wrong headed. There are literally THOUSANDS of examples of children that were raised "the right way" that went south. THat a black 12 year old kid was shot dead by police is a matter of many things:

1) Did the kid do something stupid? Yes.
2) Did the dispatcher do something stupid (not telling the cops that the caller said the suspect may be a kid)? Yes.
3) Did the cops act more aggressive than necessary? THat is up for debate. I know where you sit but I think they did and I think they did because the kid was black. That you and others have pointed out that, statistically the cop's defensiveness is supported, indicates that you agree the cops acted differently because the kid was black. BG and I both assert that a white kid in the same situation would have been afforded more time. Statistics may support the aggression but that doesn't make it right that a 12 year old kid is dead.
1) The title of the thread is "Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder". You and BG have defended that for 9 pages. Or are you so feeble minded as to accuse the cop of shooting the kid because he's black and saying that's not murder?
2) No, they didn't do something stupid. The age really doesn't matter and the info to the dispatcher was "it could be a toy gun".
3) That's not in debate. The grand jury agreed. It's police procedure and really a right of anyone to defend themselves from a perceived threat. Someone reaching into their pants (especially when the police are called because they're brandishing a firearm) without question falls into self defense. CW and USN argued that stats show that blacks way over represent criminal behavior and so it's rational to perceive blacks as more of a threat. I never touched this point. I said stats show that whites are overrepresented in being shot by the cops, which undermines yours and BG's dumb argument that the cop shot him for being black.
My New Years resolution is not to respond to idiots like awesome guy but the title of the Thread is the title of the article I linked, those aren't my words.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by BG Hokie »

CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Great anecdote and one that clearly misses the point. Who said the officer is a bigot? I didn't and I don't necessarily think he is... I just think that it's likely the 12 year old was perceived to be more of a threat because he was black than if he were white. Is it that hard to understand?
Are you saying he shouldn't have been perceived as a threat? Because statistically, the cop would be right to feel that way ( and before you say it, he was 5'7” 195lbs. He was not obviously a child).
The stats show that on the whole, blacks commit more violent crime. To be more cautious or skeptical of them makes sense. Everyone on earth does this. The police see what is out there everyday. They have way more of a feel for it than we do. I admit I would be less skeptical of an Asian person as far as violent crime goes. Even less than a white person, because as a whole they just don't seem to commit a lot of violent crime.
I feel like BG and Flo are arguing for policing in the US to be like a TSA checkpoint...where your 3yo niece gets the same pat down as Yoosef the Saudi national with baggy clothes. Nobody can be profiled, therefor everyone must be profiled. All responses must be the same...if a black kid with a gun gets shot, 66yo grandma needs to take a bullet too.
LOL, let me get this right. In this thread I assert my opinion that this kid would be alive if he were white to which the usual butt hurt commences. You were annoyed with the conjecture, if I remember correctly.

Later in this thread, you guys come around to agreeing with my entire premise as to why it's plausible that he would be alive if he were white. With nothing really left, you post this gem. LMAO, and you were the one annoyed with conjecture? Classic. You're actually a good poster, a stubborn son of a bitch, but a good poster. This has got to be your lamest moment of 2015. Congrats. If you want to get back in the real world and discuss what people are actually saying instead of making stuff up then let me know.
I have no problem with your premise. The problem is that you aren't telling why the young black man is more likely to get shot. It's not because of racism, in the vast majority of cases. It's because the demographic that you are dealing with can make you a little more on edge. It seems as if you just want to blame white cops. If you aren't doing that, fine.
Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by BG Hokie »

CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
Human nature as in a learned behavior or a behavior your born with? If it's a learned behavior, it could clearly change.
Yes, it could change, but the statistics have to change in order for that to happen.
That's the biggest factor, for sure. No doubt about it.

But you don't think learned behaviors and biases can be altered with training?
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by BG Hokie »

CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
You compared a school fight to waving a gun around out in public. Lol. A twelve year old boy should know not to run out in to traffic. He should know that waving a gun around in public is extremely dangerous. Fighting at school? Not as dangerous. And who started the fight?
No, I didn't. Not at all. That's naïve for you to think that's the point I was making. You blamed the parents because they didn't tell the kid not to run around pointing a BB gun at people.

I simply commented on how dumb of a thought process that was for you to blame the parents.
The fact that he was doing something like that leads me to believe that they didn't.
And this is why it's a stupid thought process, you're willing to blame the parents based on nothing other than the speculation that he's never been told to not point a BB gun at people. My parents taught me not to be violent but I got in fights in childhood. But using your logic given that I got in fights in childhood, my parents must have not taught me right and, therefore, my parents are to blame. It's just a stupid line of thought based on such little information.
You keep equating fights with guns. It's stupid of you. That fake gun that he had looked very real. I'm sure a few guys on here shot guns with their Dad's when they were younger. First rule? Don't point the gun at someone. A fight with another kid isn't going to kill you. A fake gun that looks like a real one, just might.

His Dad has been convicted of domestic abuse multiple times. He really wasn't a Dad.
Holy excrement, I've provided you context as to why I made the comparison and explained how you were incorrect in your premise that I'm comparing fighting to guns and you STILL.DON'T.GET.IT. And then, you just stupidly change the subject about the fake gun looking real.

Do you deserve the awesome guy treatment? You have a real problem understanding what people are saying.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by awesome guy »

BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote: I've read the Moynihan report. No where does it say the answer is to indiscriminately shoot black kids because of the environment they were raised in makes them more likely to be violent.
Maybe you should read it again. The answer to stopping black kids from getting shot is to stop black kids from doing stupid stuff like walking through a park pointing (what looks like) a gun a people. They way to fix the violence, education, and poverty issue in the black community is through family. Fathers need to be dads and the government needs to stop incentivizing single moms.
Florida Hokie wrote:There are white kids without dads and white kids with dads that do stupid excrement too. THe difference is they are less likely to get shot by a cop because they aren't black.
There are white kids without dads. Those kids are just as disadvantaged - but it's not the epidemic that it is in the black community. Complicating matters is the fact that so many blacks live concentrated in urban communities.
Florida Hokie wrote:Kids with and without dad's do stupid excrement. That's what kids do. They are learning. Adults aren't supposed to kill them for it.

**** find a heart in your tired ass old man act.
No, that's a silly ignorant statement. Find a brain in your tired ass bleeding heart act.


I think he and BG are just against anti-authority. Or they're so racist that they would convict an innocent white man of murder just because they think the black kid has a hard life. IE, FloHo doesn't care about white people! I care about the law and justice. This cop did nothing criminal. That doesn't mean I don't feel bad for the kid or his parents, it means I'm not going to protest for the cop the be jailed or executed. You and CW are right and they are wrong about the parents. It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening. Not just from the kid running around the park and pointing the gun at people in the first place, but knowing how to act around authority figures. But the dad wasn't around to teach him this and who knows what the mom is up to. You can't blame the cop for defending his life from a perceived threat, you blame the kid for creating the perceived threat. And because of his age, that blame falls on the parents who weren't watching him as he menaced the park nor taught him basic respect or common sense. I get the feeling these two were also little assholes growing up and so naturally empathize with the punks.
I never said the cop should be convicted of murder.

You feel bad for the kid and his parents but you are going to blame them for the entire thing.

"It's obvious that the parents teaching their kids basic respect or even common sense would have prevented this from happening."

That's simplistic and wrong headed. There are literally THOUSANDS of examples of children that were raised "the right way" that went south. THat a black 12 year old kid was shot dead by police is a matter of many things:

1) Did the kid do something stupid? Yes.
2) Did the dispatcher do something stupid (not telling the cops that the caller said the suspect may be a kid)? Yes.
3) Did the cops act more aggressive than necessary? THat is up for debate. I know where you sit but I think they did and I think they did because the kid was black. That you and others have pointed out that, statistically the cop's defensiveness is supported, indicates that you agree the cops acted differently because the kid was black. BG and I both assert that a white kid in the same situation would have been afforded more time. Statistics may support the aggression but that doesn't make it right that a 12 year old kid is dead.
1) The title of the thread is "Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder". You and BG have defended that for 9 pages. Or are you so feeble minded as to accuse the cop of shooting the kid because he's black and saying that's not murder?
2) No, they didn't do something stupid. The age really doesn't matter and the info to the dispatcher was "it could be a toy gun".
3) That's not in debate. The grand jury agreed. It's police procedure and really a right of anyone to defend themselves from a perceived threat. Someone reaching into their pants (especially when the police are called because they're brandishing a firearm) without question falls into self defense. CW and USN argued that stats show that blacks way over represent criminal behavior and so it's rational to perceive blacks as more of a threat. I never touched this point. I said stats show that whites are overrepresented in being shot by the cops, which undermines yours and BG's dumb argument that the cop shot him for being black.
My New Years resolution is not to respond to idiots like awesome guy but the title of the Thread is the title of the article I linked, those aren't my words.

That's fine with me. But let's be clear, you are the idiot. And a douchebag. Likely a narcissistic millennial too. Your absence is addition through subtraction.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by awesome guy »

BG Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
You compared a school fight to waving a gun around out in public. Lol. A twelve year old boy should know not to run out in to traffic. He should know that waving a gun around in public is extremely dangerous. Fighting at school? Not as dangerous. And who started the fight?
No, I didn't. Not at all. That's naïve for you to think that's the point I was making. You blamed the parents because they didn't tell the kid not to run around pointing a BB gun at people.

I simply commented on how dumb of a thought process that was for you to blame the parents.
The fact that he was doing something like that leads me to believe that they didn't.
And this is why it's a stupid thought process, you're willing to blame the parents based on nothing other than the speculation that he's never been told to not point a BB gun at people. My parents taught me not to be violent but I got in fights in childhood. But using your logic given that I got in fights in childhood, my parents must have not taught me right and, therefore, my parents are to blame. It's just a stupid line of thought based on such little information.
You keep equating fights with guns. It's stupid of you. That fake gun that he had looked very real. I'm sure a few guys on here shot guns with their Dad's when they were younger. First rule? Don't point the gun at someone. A fight with another kid isn't going to kill you. A fake gun that looks like a real one, just might.

His Dad has been convicted of domestic abuse multiple times. He really wasn't a Dad.
Holy excrement, I've provided you context as to why I made the comparison and explained how you were incorrect in your premise that I'm comparing fighting to guns and you STILL.DON'T.GET.IT. And then, you just stupidly change the subject about the fake gun looking real.

Do you deserve the awesome guy treatment? You have a real problem understanding what people are saying.
Maybe you're just a moron?
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by CWHOKIECPA »

BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by USN_Hokie »

BG, we have to surmise your position because you won't state it. It appears like you're playing footsie with the notion that the kid was killed because he was black and there is a systematic murdering of blacks by police. If that's incorrect, please let me know.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by CWHOKIECPA »

BG Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
Human nature as in a learned behavior or a behavior your born with? If it's a learned behavior, it could clearly change.
Yes, it could change, but the statistics have to change in order for that to happen.
That's the biggest factor, for sure. No doubt about it.

But you don't think learned behaviors and biases can be altered with training?
My first question would be, why would you do that?
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

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USN_Hokie wrote:BG, we have to surmise your position because you won't state it. It appears like you're playing footsie with the notion that the kid was killed because he was black and there is a systematic murdering of blacks by police. If that's incorrect, please let me know.

His position is the cops killed him for being black and you're stupid if you disagree or think the parents should have taught the kid better.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by USN_Hokie »

CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by BG Hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:BG, we have to surmise your position because you won't state it. It appears like you're playing footsie with the notion that the kid was killed because he was black and there is a systematic murdering of blacks by police. If that's incorrect, please let me know.
I made the assertion that this kid would be alive if he were white. That's my position and one that I thought would generate a discussion. Ultimately, it seems while most are unwilling to agree with my conclusion (it is simply speculation that can never be proven as fact), they agree with the premise as to why I reach my conclusion. For UWS, I'd call that progress.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by BG Hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.
So it's fair to say you believe that there is some truth to accusations that people get pulled over or stopped by police for "driving while black" or "walking while black" or whatever the hashtag de jour is...

You believe because of statistics that blacks commit more crimes, etc. that black people are policed in our society, on average, differently?

And let me expand to actually answer your question: what's wrong with that is that it increases the likelihood for innocent black people to be on the receiving end of bad law enforcement relative to innocent non-blacks. That's a unique problem for law abiding black citizens of the USA. We all seem to agree that some level of that problem is inherent based on the statistics, however, I suggest that learning and admitting that these biases exist and that they can negatively impact an encounter is the first step in finding ways to mitigate this unique risk for innocent American citizens who's skin color happens to be black.

And the bigger problem doesn't have to do with race, I simply think our government police agents have seized too much power in how they deal with its citizens in just about all policing aspects, to include use of force.
Last edited by BG Hokie on Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by awesome guy »

USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.

Do you guys really think the cop is going through these calculations in that situation? He had a second to react. I think it was more like "on call about a gun", "I see the suspect", "he's going for something ...", and then "shoot!". People aren't thinking about the grander scheme in life in situations like that, it's a survival instinct and everything else disappears in the moment. I think blaming it on the subconscious is a bit of a cop out, no phun intended. His subconscious would more likely be on things like not committing murder as he knows the law, not starting a riot as was happening in Ferguson, Baltimore, etc. , and not being labeled a racist for shooting a black kid(as these guys are trying to do). For each factor saying he was thinking of crime stats, there's more reason to not shot a black unless it's a clear decision. Anyway, I think all of this is overcomplicating a simple interaction. This really isn't complicated and the convolution is injected to make it a race issue when there's no evidence it is.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by USN_Hokie »

awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.

Do you guys really think the cop is going through these calculations in that situation? He had a second to react. I think it was more like "on call about a gun", "I see the suspect", "he's going for something ...", and then "shoot!". People aren't thinking about the grander scheme in life in situations like that, it's a survival instinct and everything else disappears in the moment. I think blaming it on the subconscious is a bit of a cop out, no phun intended. His subconscious would more likely be on things like not committing murder as he knows the law, not starting a riot as was happening in Ferguson, Baltimore, etc. , and not being labeled a racist for shooting a black kid(as these guys are trying to do). For each factor saying he was thinking of crime stats, there's more reason to not shot a black unless it's a clear decision. Anyway, I think all of this is overcomplicating a simple interaction. This really isn't complicated and the convolution is injected to make it a race issue when there's no evidence it is.
No, the bias is introduced when the cop IN CLEVELAND is responding to a report of a BLACK MALE with a GUN IN THE GHETTO. This is the piece the BG and FloHo keep ignoring. Everything capitalized is a factor when the cop is contemplating how dangerous the situation he is entering is, and its completely rational.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by USN_Hokie »

BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.
So it's fair to say you believe that there is some truth to accusations that people get pulled over or stopped by police for "driving while black" or "walking while black" or whatever the hashtag de jour is...

You believe because of statistics that blacks commit more crimes, etc. that black people are policed in our society, on average, differently?
Maybe you should provide some statistics to support your premise that blacks are pulled over more than whites. We can go from there.

ETA: my comment was specifically limited to violent crimes. Blacks may commit more moving violations but I'm not aware of any statistics on the topic.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by BG Hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.
So it's fair to say you believe that there is some truth to accusations that people get pulled over or stopped by police for "driving while black" or "walking while black" or whatever the hashtag de jour is...

You believe because of statistics that blacks commit more crimes, etc. that black people are policed in our society, on average, differently?
Maybe you should provide some statistics to support your premise that blacks are pulled over more than whites. We can go from there.

ETA: my comment was specifically limited to violent crimes. Blacks may commit more moving violations but I'm not aware of any statistics on the topic.
Let's stick to violent crimes then...

You believe because of statistics that blacks commit more crimes, etc. that black people are policed in our society, on average, differently? We seem to both agree that the answer is yes.

And let me expand to actually answer your question: what's wrong with that is that it increases the likelihood for innocent black people to be on the receiving end of bad law enforcement relative to innocent non-blacks. That's a unique problem for law abiding black citizens of the USA. We all seem to agree that some level of that problem is inherent based on the statistics, however, I suggest that learning and admitting that these biases exist and that they can negatively impact an encounter is the first step in finding ways to mitigate this unique risk for innocent American citizens who's skin color happens to be black.

And the bigger problem doesn't have to do with race, I simply think our government police agents have seized too much power in how they deal with its citizens in just about all policing aspects, to include use of force.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by awesome guy »

USN_Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.

Do you guys really think the cop is going through these calculations in that situation? He had a second to react. I think it was more like "on call about a gun", "I see the suspect", "he's going for something ...", and then "shoot!". People aren't thinking about the grander scheme in life in situations like that, it's a survival instinct and everything else disappears in the moment. I think blaming it on the subconscious is a bit of a cop out, no phun intended. His subconscious would more likely be on things like not committing murder as he knows the law, not starting a riot as was happening in Ferguson, Baltimore, etc. , and not being labeled a racist for shooting a black kid(as these guys are trying to do). For each factor saying he was thinking of crime stats, there's more reason to not shot a black unless it's a clear decision. Anyway, I think all of this is overcomplicating a simple interaction. This really isn't complicated and the convolution is injected to make it a race issue when there's no evidence it is.
No, the bias is introduced when the cop IN CLEVELAND is responding to a report of a BLACK MALE with a GUN IN THE GHETTO. This is the piece the BG and FloHo keep ignoring. Everything capitalized is a factor when the cop is contemplating how dangerous the situation he is entering is, and its completely rational.
I agree only that it might put him in a more heightened state. But still contend all of that disappears in a life and death situation and it becomes see threat, react. This wasn't his first day in the ghetto, he should be used to this type of call. I doubt that was the first gun pointed at him either. I take it you've been in a life and death situation before, right? Maybe I'm projecting my own experiences, but anything outside of survival wasn't on my mind. When I hit a bear with my truck, the bear literally looked highlighted to me, that's literally all I saw as the rest of the world faded into the background. I was wrapped in my anchor line and got wrapped around a bridge pylon in 40 degree water and air temp by myself, again, freeing myself was the only thought in my mind. All I saw was the bridge, the tools to free myself, and the pylon. Everything not critical to success might as well have not existed. I have several other examples and in all of them the danger and way out of it was all I contemplated. Maybe the cop is wired differently, but I figure this type of survival mode is engaged in most people in similar situations.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by Uprising »

USN_Hokie wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.
So it's fair to say you believe that there is some truth to accusations that people get pulled over or stopped by police for "driving while black" or "walking while black" or whatever the hashtag de jour is...

You believe because of statistics that blacks commit more crimes, etc. that black people are policed in our society, on average, differently?
Maybe you should provide some statistics to support your premise that blacks are pulled over more than whites. We can go from there.

ETA: my comment was specifically limited to violent crimes. Blacks may commit more moving violations but I'm not aware of any statistics on the topic.
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Re: Tamir Rice Shows You Can Get Away With Murder

Post by awesome guy »

BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
CWHOKIECPA wrote:
BG Hokie wrote: Read the words I type and respond to those words. Don't react and respond with what you assume I must think, because your typically wrong, if this thread is an indicator.
Okay. I went back and looked at your original post. I was in Star Wars yesterday when I read it for the first time. It was during the previews. I agree with your original post. The thread got murkier as we went along. I agree with your post. You may be right, he may be alive if he were white. Yes, there is subconscious bias. It's created by being out on the street and seeing who is more likely to commit violent crime. It's in the stats.
I'd agree to that and my response to BG is/was "What is wrong with that?" I'm not sure I got a response.
So it's fair to say you believe that there is some truth to accusations that people get pulled over or stopped by police for "driving while black" or "walking while black" or whatever the hashtag de jour is...

You believe because of statistics that blacks commit more crimes, etc. that black people are policed in our society, on average, differently?
Maybe you should provide some statistics to support your premise that blacks are pulled over more than whites. We can go from there.

ETA: my comment was specifically limited to violent crimes. Blacks may commit more moving violations but I'm not aware of any statistics on the topic.
Let's stick to violent crimes then...

You believe because of statistics that blacks commit more crimes, etc. that black people are policed in our society, on average, differently? We seem to both agree that the answer is yes.

And let me expand to actually answer your question: what's wrong with that is that it increases the likelihood for innocent black people to be on the receiving end of bad law enforcement relative to innocent non-blacks. That's a unique problem for law abiding black citizens of the USA. We all seem to agree that some level of that problem is inherent based on the statistics, however, I suggest that learning and admitting that these biases exist and that they can negatively impact an encounter is the first step in finding ways to mitigate this unique risk for innocent American citizens who's skin color happens to be black.

And the bigger problem doesn't have to do with race, I simply think our government police agents have seized too much power in how they deal with its citizens in just about all policing aspects, to include use of force.

Taking advantage of my power to belittle you without a response, that's just dumb. There's no problem with blacks not acting like hoodlums or pointing guns at cops being shot. The narrative of blacks being shot for being black just isn't justified by statistics. And just as you say the cop is acting on racists tendencies because of his increased interactions with black criminals, he's also way more conscientious to not face morons like you who will claim he's a racists that wouldn't shoot a white kid in the same situation. Your racism is also a factor in his mind as he can lose his job, all from some loon like you calling him a racist for defending his life. Or a bunch of you starting a riot and burning the city. So that whole racism thing cuts both ways. But of course it's irrelevant when the cop thinks someone is about to shoot him. He cares about not getting shot, not racism, social justice, and other factors. You should reflect on whatever you were thinking about when your were acting as a jackass in your youth. I doubt they were deep thoughts or concerns outside of the current situation.
Last edited by awesome guy on Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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