Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts voted

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133743Hokie
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Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts voted

Post by 133743Hokie »

for legality of Obamacare (based on a self created technicality) recognizing that it was most likely going to be a clusterf**k and sensing it would be better for the country, and him, for it to die its own death vs. one from the courts?
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

Post by oaktonhokie »

No. And I really hope not.

Judges are supposed to, and they used to, make decisions based on the constitution, not what they think is best for people.

133743Hokie wrote:for legality of Obamacare (based on a self created technicality) recognizing that it was most likely going to be a clusterf**k and sensing it would be better for the country, and him, for it to die its own death vs. one from the courts?
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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133743Hokie wrote:for legality of Obamacare (based on a self created technicality) recognizing that it was most likely going to be a clusterf**k and sensing it would be better for the country, and him, for it to die its own death vs. one from the courts?

I think he was blackmailed. No proof, but his turn about was inexplicable as the rational was profoundly stupid. He essentially argued against Marbury v. Madison, leaving it up to the legislature. Even if it is a cluster, the courts approved the federal government being as abusive as it wants as long as it calls it's abuse a tax. As if the 16th amendment overrules everything else in the constitution.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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awesome guy wrote:I think he was blackmailed. No proof, but his turn about was inexplicable as the rational was profoundly stupid. He essentially argued against Marbury v. Madison, leaving it up to the legislature. Even if it is a cluster, the courts approved the federal government being as abusive as it wants as long as it calls it's abuse a tax. As if the 16th amendment overrules everything else in the constitution.
This. It seems pretty obvious. He was voting no. Something changed. I'm assuming that he has a spare time activity that the NSA is aware of.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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BigDave wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I think he was blackmailed. No proof, but his turn about was inexplicable as the rational was profoundly stupid. He essentially argued against Marbury v. Madison, leaving it up to the legislature. Even if it is a cluster, the courts approved the federal government being as abusive as it wants as long as it calls it's abuse a tax. As if the 16th amendment overrules everything else in the constitution.
This. It seems pretty obvious. He was voting no. Something changed. I'm assuming that he has a spare time activity that the NSA is aware of.
That could be. Or he could be concerned about the legitimacy of the Court if they continued to deliver partisan 5-4 decisions.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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VoiceOfReason wrote:That could be. Or he could be concerned about the legitimacy of the Court if they continued to deliver partisan 5-4 decisions.

Umm ... hint: the final decision was also 5-4.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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BigDave wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I think he was blackmailed. No proof, but his turn about was inexplicable as the rational was profoundly stupid. He essentially argued against Marbury v. Madison, leaving it up to the legislature. Even if it is a cluster, the courts approved the federal government being as abusive as it wants as long as it calls it's abuse a tax. As if the 16th amendment overrules everything else in the constitution.
This. It seems pretty obvious. He was voting no. Something changed. I'm assuming that he has a spare time activity that the NSA is aware of.
I think it may be related to their adoption of their kid. Maybe they paid for it or something? It was a quickie, out of nation adoption. He was also asking for a raise before and complaining that the SC is too big of a pay cut of the best lawyers. So maybe he got a deal on property next to Resko? Something happened, I doubt he changed his mind out of conscious or logical reasons.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:That could be. Or he could be concerned about the legitimacy of the Court if they continued to deliver partisan 5-4 decisions.

Umm ... hint: the final decision was also 5-4.
"legitimacy" also means "why aren't you conservatives caving into the liberals." How often do the liberals abandon their partisanship?
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:That could be. Or he could be concerned about the legitimacy of the Court if they continued to deliver partisan 5-4 decisions.

Umm ... hint: the final decision was also 5-4.
Indeed it was. But the makeup of the 5 judges was different from all the other 5-4's.

Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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awesome guy wrote:
BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:That could be. Or he could be concerned about the legitimacy of the Court if they continued to deliver partisan 5-4 decisions.

Umm ... hint: the final decision was also 5-4.
"legitimacy" also means "why aren't you conservatives caving into the liberals." How often do the liberals abandon their partisanship?
No, in this case "legitimacy" refers to courts following the law rather than the political agenda of one side or the other. I am not so arrogant as to believe one side 100% right and the other 100% wrong.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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VoiceOfReason wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:That could be. Or he could be concerned about the legitimacy of the Court if they continued to deliver partisan 5-4 decisions.

Umm ... hint: the final decision was also 5-4.
"legitimacy" also means "why aren't you conservatives caving into the liberals." How often do the liberals abandon their partisanship?
No, in this case "legitimacy" refers to courts following the law rather than the political agenda of one side or the other. I am not so arrogant as to believe one side 100% right and the other 100% wrong.
So it would be illegitimate if it were 5-4 against you?

Quick quiz, can the government force you to buy a gun?
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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VoiceOfReason wrote:Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
Or ... maybe it's because the 4 are partisan hacks and not serious jurists.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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awesome guy wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:That could be. Or he could be concerned about the legitimacy of the Court if they continued to deliver partisan 5-4 decisions.

Umm ... hint: the final decision was also 5-4.
"legitimacy" also means "why aren't you conservatives caving into the liberals." How often do the liberals abandon their partisanship?
No, in this case "legitimacy" refers to courts following the law rather than the political agenda of one side or the other. I am not so arrogant as to believe one side 100% right and the other 100% wrong.
So it would be illegitimate if it were 5-4 against you?

Quick quiz, can the government force you to buy a gun?
We are talking about the perception of illegitimacy over a long series of cases. It does not matter whether it's with you or against you... but if the same partisan side always wins...

I dunno, but they have not forced me yet. All of my gun purchases have not been forced by any government. :mrgreen:
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
Or ... maybe it's because the 4 are partisan hacks and not serious jurists.
Absolutely it takes two to tango. But if most of these rulings always land along partisan lines... then maybe the rule of law is not being given it's proper consideration - regardless of the victor.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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VoiceOfReason wrote: We are talking about the perception of illegitimacy over a long series of cases. It does not matter whether it's with you or against you... but if the same partisan side always wins...

I dunno, but they have not forced me yet. All of my gun purchases have not been forced by any government. :mrgreen:
but you seem to only have an issue with contitionalists. What about the 4 libs that most always vote party lines? Do the rules of impartiality apply to them too?
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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awesome guy wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote: We are talking about the perception of illegitimacy over a long series of cases. It does not matter whether it's with you or against you... but if the same partisan side always wins...

I dunno, but they have not forced me yet. All of my gun purchases have not been forced by any government. :mrgreen:
but you seem to only have an issue with contitionalists. What about the 4 libs that most always vote party lines? Do the rules of impartiality apply to them too?
I addressed this in my last post. YES, it's never a good thing for the court system to constantly give rulings based more on political ideology that law. For both sides.

CJ Roberts broke the trend with his ACA ruling. I merely raise the issue that he is concerned that his Court be perceived as bought and paid for. :mrgreen:
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
Or ... maybe it's because the 4 are partisan hacks and not serious jurists.
i think there are 6 partisan hacks:

scalia, thomas, sotomayer, kagan, alito, ginsberg
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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I tend to agree with this. He almost argued against the law better than the lawyers did during the hearing. But then he seemed to do an inexplicable 180 at the 11th hour. He should be ashamed of himself, and I know that in his heart of hearts, he knows this law is not constitutional, and certainly not keeping with the spirit of the Constitution.
awesome guy wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:for legality of Obamacare (based on a self created technicality) recognizing that it was most likely going to be a clusterf**k and sensing it would be better for the country, and him, for it to die its own death vs. one from the courts?

I think he was blackmailed. No proof, but his turn about was inexplicable as the rational was profoundly stupid. He essentially argued against Marbury v. Madison, leaving it up to the legislature. Even if it is a cluster, the courts approved the federal government being as abusive as it wants as long as it calls it's abuse a tax. As if the 16th amendment overrules everything else in the constitution.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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HvilleHokie wrote:
BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
Or ... maybe it's because the 4 are partisan hacks and not serious jurists.
i think there are 6 partisan hacks:

scalia, thomas, sotomayer, kagan, alito, ginsberg

They're all firmly held in their beliefs to equal degrees. Not sure how many people know this, but they don't even debate the cases really outside of the arguments. They just vote, and then divvy up writing assignments.

The difference is that folks like Scalia and Thomas use a more principled jurisprudence, which is why you see them siding with the left often (contrary to this misunderstanding that every case is decided 5-4....liberals just tell each other that to get people fired up).
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

Post by HvilleHokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
HvilleHokie wrote:
BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
Or ... maybe it's because the 4 are partisan hacks and not serious jurists.
i think there are 6 partisan hacks:

scalia, thomas, sotomayer, kagan, alito, ginsberg

They're all firmly held in their beliefs to equal degrees. Not sure how many people know this, but they don't even debate the cases really outside of the arguments. They just vote, and then divvy up writing assignments.

The difference is that folks like Scalia and Thomas use a more principled jurisprudence, which is why you see them siding with the left often (contrary to this misunderstanding that every case is decided 5-4....liberals just tell each other that to get people fired up).

i've often thought that the cases should be decided by more than a majority vote. i'm not sure i need unanimous, but maybe 75%? seems that if they are deciding on the constitutionality of items, that that should have little to do with political leanings.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

Post by USN_Hokie »

HvilleHokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HvilleHokie wrote:
BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
Or ... maybe it's because the 4 are partisan hacks and not serious jurists.
i think there are 6 partisan hacks:

scalia, thomas, sotomayer, kagan, alito, ginsberg

They're all firmly held in their beliefs to equal degrees. Not sure how many people know this, but they don't even debate the cases really outside of the arguments. They just vote, and then divvy up writing assignments.

The difference is that folks like Scalia and Thomas use a more principled jurisprudence, which is why you see them siding with the left often (contrary to this misunderstanding that every case is decided 5-4....liberals just tell each other that to get people fired up).

i've often thought that the cases should be decided by more than a majority vote. i'm not sure i need unanimous, but maybe 75%? seems that if they are deciding on the constitutionality of items, that that should have little to do with political leanings.
Ok, you've completely lost me. :) Whether they affirm or overturn the lower court ruling, it's still deciding on the Constitutionality of law.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

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When was that?
oaktonhokie wrote:they used to, make decisions based on the constitution
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

Post by HokieJoe »

I'd considered that previously, but no. It doesn't fit in with his 'legitimacy of Supreme court rulings' ideas. That is a totally BS lens thru which to determine a ruling. The Supreme's are charged with rendering rulings based upon the law, not what popular opinion is. But that is exactly what he did IMO, when he cast his vote.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... es/305559/
133743Hokie wrote:for legality of Obamacare (based on a self created technicality) recognizing that it was most likely going to be a clusterf**k and sensing it would be better for the country, and him, for it to die its own death vs. one from the courts?
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

Post by 133743Hokie »

VoiceOfReason wrote:
BigDave wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:Nothing wrong with 5-4. But questions arise when the same 5 constantly push a partisan agenda over the objection of the remaining 4.
Or ... maybe it's because the 4 are partisan hacks and not serious jurists.
Absolutely it takes two to tango. But if most of these rulings always land along partisan lines... then maybe the rule of law is not being given it's proper consideration - regardless of the victor.
Actually the rule is law IS being given proper consideration. One side tends to view the constitution as a firm document that has explicit language, while the other sees it as malleable and open to what ever interpretation they (thru their partisan lenses) deem reasonable. Both sides believe they are giving the law proper consideration.
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Re: Just wondering...anyone think Chief Justice Roberts vote

Post by oaktonhokie »

1893. It was a Tuesday.


Marine Hokie wrote:When was that?
oaktonhokie wrote:they used to, make decisions based on the constitution
If you bend over backwards long enough,
eventually you'll fall down.
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