Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

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ip_law-hokie
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by ip_law-hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:I beleive medical bills are the leading factor in personal bankruptcy filings, that is what I have read in the past. A hospital or medical practice is the same as anyone else, they will pursue payment as far as they can, I don't blame them, they have bills to pay also
Medical expenses are definitely the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. And I'm pretty sure that number is at least 500k or more per year.
It's also true that most of those people have medical insurance, so it comes from people who have severe conditions and/or surgeries that aren't covered by insurance. As you said, the insurance companies don't cover these extreme circumstances, so it's up to the family to decide how they want to handle it. In the Gard case, they have decided to try to save him, and the gov. won't let him. That's pretty appalling IMO.[/quote]

I agree with you on the UK deal, handled very badly.[/quote]

cwtcr - you have presented your arguments very persuasively, yet respectfully. I commend your work in this thread.
With their Cap’n and Chief Intelligence Officer having deserted them, River, Ham and Joe valiantly continue their whataboutismistic last stand of the DJT apology tour.
133743Hokie
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by 133743Hokie »

HokieFanDC wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:The parents and charity will pay. What's the problem?
in this particular case they did a go fund me thing and have the cash, I was addressing Kong's the gov. should not be in the decision but as we all know who is paying matters and we deal with it daily on what insurance will or won't pay for, 99% of us don't have the funds to self fund tho. I agree it is an argument against single payer as the gov is then the payer (as it is now with vet care and medicare/medicaid) but was just pointing some issues this discussion brings up.

As i said, there is nothing easy or simple in health care
Ability to pay isn't considered by a hospital before doing a necessary procedure. The distinction is meaningless.

The family might have to choose whether they want to be indebted for the next 30yrs paying for grandpa to live two more months, but it is their choice. In the UK, there is no choice. When the cost to fix you exceeds your worth to the government (not your family) you're written off.
Thats not true either, yes they have to provide emergency treatment but no they do not have to provide a surgery or specific procedure if there is no way to pay for it. It happens all the time though, this is nothing new. A person can sign a piece of paper to promise to pay and be driven into bankruptcy eventually though.
The "driven to bankruptcy" is a great talking point for the left, but is seldom an actual occurrence. It is such a small, small fraction of a percentage of the populace. It should not be a dominant factor in making healthcare/insurance law in the US. We can't deconstruct an entire industry for the many just to help a few.
I beleive medical bills are the leading factor in personal bankruptcy filings, that is what I have read in the past. A hospital or medical practice is the same as anyone else, they will pursue payment as far as they can, I don't blame them, they have bills to pay also
Medical expenses are definitely the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. And I'm pretty sure that number is at least 500k or more per year.
It's also true that most of those people have medical insurance, so it comes from people who have severe conditions and/or surgeries that aren't covered by insurance. As you said, the insurance companies don't cover these extreme circumstances, so it's up to the family to decide how they want to handle it. In the Gard case, they have decided to try to save him, and the gov. won't let him. That's pretty appalling IMO.[/quote]
Not quite correct. Medical "issues", not expenses, are a major cause of bankruptcy fillings, but estimated by most to be less than half the total. And within medical issues, inability to pay because you just don't have the money is only about half. Another half is the inability to work and make money because of the medical issue. Most major medical bills are for significant events where coverage is exceeded. Hospitals/doctors don't want you to declare bankruptcy and will negotiate significant reductions and/or payment plans to get something vs. nothing if bankruptcy is declared.

I stand by my position that it is a minor factor and shouldn't drive the healthcare debate. It makes for great talking points, tugging at peoples heart strings, but it is minor.
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ip_law-hokie
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by ip_law-hokie »

in this particular case they did a go fund me thing and have the cash, I was addressing Kong's the gov. should not be in the decision but as we all know who is paying matters and we deal with it daily on what insurance will or won't pay for, 99% of us don't have the funds to self fund tho. I agree it is an argument against single payer as the gov is then the payer (as it is now with vet care and medicare/medicaid) but was just pointing some issues this discussion brings up.

As i said, there is nothing easy or simple in health care[/quote]

Ability to pay isn't considered by a hospital before doing a necessary procedure. The distinction is meaningless.

The family might have to choose whether they want to be indebted for the next 30yrs paying for grandpa to live two more months, but it is their choice. In the UK, there is no choice. When the cost to fix you exceeds your worth to the government (not your family) you're written off.[/quote]

Thats not true either, yes they have to provide emergency treatment but no they do not have to provide a surgery or specific procedure if there is no way to pay for it. It happens all the time though, this is nothing new. A person can sign a piece of paper to promise to pay and be driven into bankruptcy eventually though.[/quote]
The "driven to bankruptcy" is a great talking point for the left, but is seldom an actual occurrence. It is such a small, small fraction of a percentage of the populace. It should not be a dominant factor in making healthcare/insurance law in the US. We can't deconstruct an entire industry for the many just to help a few.[/quote]

I beleive medical bills are the leading factor in personal bankruptcy filings, that is what I have read in the past. A hospital or medical practice is the same as anyone else, they will pursue payment as far as they can, I don't blame them, they have bills to pay also[/quote]

Medical expenses are definitely the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. And I'm pretty sure that number is at least 500k or more per year.
It's also true that most of those people have medical insurance, so it comes from people who have severe conditions and/or surgeries that aren't covered by insurance. As you said, the insurance companies don't cover these extreme circumstances, so it's up to the family to decide how they want to handle it. In the Gard case, they have decided to try to save him, and the gov. won't let him. That's pretty appalling IMO.[/quote]
Not quite correct. Medical "issues", not expenses, are a major cause of bankruptcy fillings, but estimated by most to be less than half the total. And within medical issues, inability to pay because you just don't have the money is only about half. Another half is the inability to work and make money because of the medical issue. Most major medical bills are for significant events where coverage is exceeded. Hospitals/doctors don't want you to declare bankruptcy and will negotiate significant reductions and/or payment plans to get something vs. nothing if bankruptcy is declared.

I stand by my position that it is a minor factor and shouldn't drive the healthcare debate. It makes for great talking points, tugging at peoples heart strings, but it is minor.[/quote]

Minor until it is you.
With their Cap’n and Chief Intelligence Officer having deserted them, River, Ham and Joe valiantly continue their whataboutismistic last stand of the DJT apology tour.
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USN_Hokie
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by USN_Hokie »

ip_law-hokie wrote:
Not quite correct. Medical "issues", not expenses, are a major cause of bankruptcy fillings, but estimated by most to be less than half the total. And within medical issues, inability to pay because you just don't have the money is only about half. Another half is the inability to work and make money because of the medical issue. Most major medical bills are for significant events where coverage is exceeded. Hospitals/doctors don't want you to declare bankruptcy and will negotiate significant reductions and/or payment plans to get something vs. nothing if bankruptcy is declared.

I stand by my position that it is a minor factor and shouldn't drive the healthcare debate. It makes for great talking points, tugging at peoples heart strings, but it is minor.
Minor until it is you.
.....just like being sentenced to death by a bureaucrat because your repairs exceed your value.

The difference is that one path gives you liberty / choice, while the statist option has someone making choices for you based not on your interests, but theirs.
133743Hokie
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by 133743Hokie »

ip_law-hokie wrote:in this particular case they did a go fund me thing and have the cash, I was addressing Kong's the gov. should not be in the decision but as we all know who is paying matters and we deal with it daily on what insurance will or won't pay for, 99% of us don't have the funds to self fund tho. I agree it is an argument against single payer as the gov is then the payer (as it is now with vet care and medicare/medicaid) but was just pointing some issues this discussion brings up.

As i said, there is nothing easy or simple in health care
Ability to pay isn't considered by a hospital before doing a necessary procedure. The distinction is meaningless.

The family might have to choose whether they want to be indebted for the next 30yrs paying for grandpa to live two more months, but it is their choice. In the UK, there is no choice. When the cost to fix you exceeds your worth to the government (not your family) you're written off.[/quote]

Thats not true either, yes they have to provide emergency treatment but no they do not have to provide a surgery or specific procedure if there is no way to pay for it. It happens all the time though, this is nothing new. A person can sign a piece of paper to promise to pay and be driven into bankruptcy eventually though.[/quote]
The "driven to bankruptcy" is a great talking point for the left, but is seldom an actual occurrence. It is such a small, small fraction of a percentage of the populace. It should not be a dominant factor in making healthcare/insurance law in the US. We can't deconstruct an entire industry for the many just to help a few.[/quote]

I beleive medical bills are the leading factor in personal bankruptcy filings, that is what I have read in the past. A hospital or medical practice is the same as anyone else, they will pursue payment as far as they can, I don't blame them, they have bills to pay also[/quote]

Medical expenses are definitely the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. And I'm pretty sure that number is at least 500k or more per year.
It's also true that most of those people have medical insurance, so it comes from people who have severe conditions and/or surgeries that aren't covered by insurance. As you said, the insurance companies don't cover these extreme circumstances, so it's up to the family to decide how they want to handle it. In the Gard case, they have decided to try to save him, and the gov. won't let him. That's pretty appalling IMO.[/quote]
Not quite correct. Medical "issues", not expenses, are a major cause of bankruptcy fillings, but estimated by most to be less than half the total. And within medical issues, inability to pay because you just don't have the money is only about half. Another half is the inability to work and make money because of the medical issue. Most major medical bills are for significant events where coverage is exceeded. Hospitals/doctors don't want you to declare bankruptcy and will negotiate significant reductions and/or payment plans to get something vs. nothing if bankruptcy is declared.

I stand by my position that it is a minor factor and shouldn't drive the healthcare debate. It makes for great talking points, tugging at peoples heart strings, but it is minor.[/quote]

Minor until it is you.[/quote]
No, just minor. With 330 million people it cant be perfect for everyone. Such is life.
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by Vienna_Hokie »

So now they won't release the child from the hospital to go to the US with his parents because they don't believe in the treatment.

They won't do anything to try to help the kid and won't let the parents either. WTF??? This is what happens when gov bureaucrats think they own the peasants that they serve.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/21 ... court.html
Looks like the only thing 1984 got wrong was the date.
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by USN_Hokie »

Vienna_Hokie wrote:So now they won't release the child from the hospital to go to the US with his parents because they don't believe in the treatment.

They won't do anything to try to help the kid and won't let the parents either. WTF??? This is what happens when gov bureaucrats think they own the peasants that they serve.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/21 ... court.html
They're going to make him die to protect the state. Think of the indictment on their healthcare system it would be if he came to the US, was treated, and recovered. They can't let that happen.
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Re: Charlie Gard just became a US citizen.

Post by HokieJoe »

USN_Hokie wrote:
Vienna_Hokie wrote:So now they won't release the child from the hospital to go to the US with his parents because they don't believe in the treatment.

They won't do anything to try to help the kid and won't let the parents either. WTF??? This is what happens when gov bureaucrats think they own the peasants that they serve.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/21 ... court.html
They're going to make him die to protect the state. Think of the indictment on their healthcare system it would be if he came to the US, was treated, and recovered. They can't let that happen.

From what I've read, the child is very unlikely to recover, but yeah, they don't like their authority being questioned, and they don't want to set any precedents. F the parents, and F individual freedom...It's all about 'the state' to those amoral pricks.
"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
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