Massive electric fraud

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Florida Hokie
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by Florida Hokie »

133743Hokie wrote:
BigDave wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
BigDave wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:He hasn't built Tesla on subsidies! That's pure nonsense. He hasn't even sold enough vehicles yet to even have that make an impact on the business. You think he believes he has surpassed every other EV manufacturer and wants to get rid of the subsidy now to hold them back? Nonsense.
According to Wikipedia, he passed 200K sales in March 2017. At $7500 each, that's $1.5 billion, or, one-third of the market cap of Tesla.
The $7,500 is a tax credit for the purchaser, not a payment to the car manufacturer. Tesla doesn't see the $7,500. The tax credit does make the purchase of the car more attractive, hence why people see the inequity in the subsidy for EVs.
If the government offered a $1 credit to buy Snickers candy bars, Mars may not see that DIRECTLY, but they could raise their price by $1 and anyone who could afford it before can still afford it. So they would see it INDIRECTLY. It's the same thing with Tesla - they don't get it DIRECTLY, but they can charge more so they get it INDIRECTLY.
What? You think Tesla jacks up the price of their car because the buyer gets a tax credit? That's nonsense! They are not going to do anything to reduce their exposure to the max number of potential customers. Why do you think they developed the model 3?
Tesla gets a market advantage because of the tax credit.
Vienna_Hokie
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by Vienna_Hokie »

Hokie CPA wrote:Warren Buffet is welcome to give as much as he likes to the US government. If he's so concerned, he should give more than the minimum.
Buffet was a huge supported of Obama and was willing to say all the right things to support the progressive social agenda, in exchange for the Fed's continuing to block the construction of pipelines to move oil from the Dakotas to the refineries. Why? Well Buffet's companies own the railroads that move a lot of that oil since there are no pipelines and Buffet's companies build all the tanker cars that carry that oil and when new EPA requirements for double walled tanker cars got put in place...Buffet's companies were well positioned to get all the work to retrofit the cars they had built to be in compliance with those new regulations.

Buffet comes off as the kindly older gentleman but in the end he is a powerful businessman who like Getty, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, etc paid well for their influence and profited handsomely from those expenditures.

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/ ... -favo.aspx

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles ... ision.html
Looks like the only thing 1984 got wrong was the date.
HokieJoe
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by HokieJoe »

133743Hokie wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:Hatchet job piece from a Tea Party lady that frankly doesn't know a thing about what she is writing about.

Please do offer details on where she is wrong. That $7500 subsidy should be shiite-canned. Yesterday.
She says the USG is subsidizing SpaceX. That is not true.

She has a bone to pick about electric vehicle subsidies. Fine. Interesting that there is no mention of the US car makers getting subsidies for their electric cars. No mention of the tax breaks and subsidies for hybrid vehicles in their early stages.

She never mentions that federal dollars have funded private and university R&D forever.

Bottom line is she doesn't like Elon Musk and has focused in on him with a click bait article.

The difference is, Toyota would still be in business without Prius. GM is different because of their legacy of mismanagement and crushing labor issues; but very little of their business depends upon the Volt.
They use those cars to help improve their corporate fuel efficiency numbers, so yes they matter.

Not really. They could offer stripped down petrol models that get the same fuel economy as hybrid/electric cars. But then, they wouldn't get the $7500 tax credit.
"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
HokieJoe
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by HokieJoe »

Vienna_Hokie wrote:
Hokie CPA wrote:Warren Buffet is welcome to give as much as he likes to the US government. If he's so concerned, he should give more than the minimum.
Buffet was a huge supported of Obama and was willing to say all the right things to support the progressive social agenda, in exchange for the Fed's continuing to block the construction of pipelines to move oil from the Dakotas to the refineries. Why? Well Buffet's companies own the railroads that move a lot of that oil since there are no pipelines and Buffet's companies build all the tanker cars that carry that oil and when new EPA requirements for double walled tanker cars got put in place...Buffet's companies were well positioned to get all the work to retrofit the cars they had built to be in compliance with those new regulations.

Buffet comes off as the kindly older gentleman but in the end he is a powerful businessman who like Getty, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, etc paid well for their influence and profited handsomely from those expenditures.

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/ ... -favo.aspx

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles ... ision.html
Yep
"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
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awesome guy
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by awesome guy »

HokieJoe wrote:
Vienna_Hokie wrote:
Hokie CPA wrote:Warren Buffet is welcome to give as much as he likes to the US government. If he's so concerned, he should give more than the minimum.
Buffet was a huge supported of Obama and was willing to say all the right things to support the progressive social agenda, in exchange for the Fed's continuing to block the construction of pipelines to move oil from the Dakotas to the refineries. Why? Well Buffet's companies own the railroads that move a lot of that oil since there are no pipelines and Buffet's companies build all the tanker cars that carry that oil and when new EPA requirements for double walled tanker cars got put in place...Buffet's companies were well positioned to get all the work to retrofit the cars they had built to be in compliance with those new regulations.

Buffet comes off as the kindly older gentleman but in the end he is a powerful businessman who like Getty, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, etc paid well for their influence and profited handsomely from those expenditures.

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/ ... -favo.aspx

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles ... ision.html
Yep
And say is all he did. Buffett magically avoided the tax hikes he claimed to lust after.
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133743Hokie
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by 133743Hokie »

Florida Hokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
BigDave wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
BigDave wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:He hasn't built Tesla on subsidies! That's pure nonsense. He hasn't even sold enough vehicles yet to even have that make an impact on the business. You think he believes he has surpassed every other EV manufacturer and wants to get rid of the subsidy now to hold them back? Nonsense.
According to Wikipedia, he passed 200K sales in March 2017. At $7500 each, that's $1.5 billion, or, one-third of the market cap of Tesla.
The $7,500 is a tax credit for the purchaser, not a payment to the car manufacturer. Tesla doesn't see the $7,500. The tax credit does make the purchase of the car more attractive, hence why people see the inequity in the subsidy for EVs.
If the government offered a $1 credit to buy Snickers candy bars, Mars may not see that DIRECTLY, but they could raise their price by $1 and anyone who could afford it before can still afford it. So they would see it INDIRECTLY. It's the same thing with Tesla - they don't get it DIRECTLY, but they can charge more so they get it INDIRECTLY.
What? You think Tesla jacks up the price of their car because the buyer gets a tax credit? That's nonsense! They are not going to do anything to reduce their exposure to the max number of potential customers. Why do you think they developed the model 3?
Tesla gets a market advantage because of the tax credit.
Yep, it's helped them sell a whopping 200k cars (according to Biggie) in 5 years.

Toyota, Chevy, etc. all got the same advantage.

I understand you guys don't like subsidies. But the subsidies haven't resulted in $1.5B in market cap as Biggie suggests. That's just nonsense, and if you can't see it then there is nothing else to be written.
133743Hokie
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by 133743Hokie »

HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:Hatchet job piece from a Tea Party lady that frankly doesn't know a thing about what she is writing about.

Please do offer details on where she is wrong. That $7500 subsidy should be shiite-canned. Yesterday.
She says the USG is subsidizing SpaceX. That is not true.

She has a bone to pick about electric vehicle subsidies. Fine. Interesting that there is no mention of the US car makers getting subsidies for their electric cars. No mention of the tax breaks and subsidies for hybrid vehicles in their early stages.

She never mentions that federal dollars have funded private and university R&D forever.

Bottom line is she doesn't like Elon Musk and has focused in on him with a click bait article.

The difference is, Toyota would still be in business without Prius. GM is different because of their legacy of mismanagement and crushing labor issues; but very little of their business depends upon the Volt.
They use those cars to help improve their corporate fuel efficiency numbers, so yes they matter.

Not really. They could offer stripped down petrol models that get the same fuel economy as hybrid/electric cars. But then, they wouldn't get the $7500 tax credit.
No one would buy the stripped down cars
HokieJoe
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by HokieJoe »

133743Hokie wrote: No one would buy the stripped down cars
Says you. They would be priced a lot less. Price matters for a rather large segment of the market.
"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by fatman »

The tax credit phases out after 200k per manufacturer.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in- ... nd-irc-30d

Tesla's credit has been exhausted. The Auto industry is rapidly moving to the EV format. Other manufacturers who haven't yet fulfilled their 200k credit will still get it, but tesla won't see any benefit.

I think taxing Carbon as Exxon, Bloomberg, and others have proposed is a better incentive that this $7500 credit. New cars sales are rapidly converting to Electric. A Carbon tax might get more people out of their obsolete gas guzzlers sooner and into better new cars that are EV. If the US weren't running such a deficit, something neither Us party has any interest in curtailing, I'd favor the $7500 rebate versus the punitive tax. They don't, so I don't.
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by HokieFanDC »

awesome guy wrote:
Hokie CPA wrote:Warren Buffet is welcome to give as much as he likes to the US government. If he's so concerned, he should give more than the minimum.
I'm pointing out the stupidity in DC's retort. "But, but, but he says the freebies should end!"[While having the unexercised ability to end them himself]
What are you bitching about? Musk didn't create the subsidies. If he can benefit from them, that's just good business. I have it on good authority that using available legal means to further your business and create profit is what smart business men do.
Do you disagree, or do you think we should take away all subsidies?
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by awesome guy »

HokieFanDC wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Hokie CPA wrote:Warren Buffet is welcome to give as much as he likes to the US government. If he's so concerned, he should give more than the minimum.
I'm pointing out the stupidity in DC's retort. "But, but, but he says the freebies should end!"[While having the unexercised ability to end them himself]
What are you bitching about? Musk didn't create the subsidies. If he can benefit from them, that's just good business. I have it on good authority that using available legal means to further your business and create profit is what smart business men do.
Do you disagree, or do you think we should take away all subsidies?
I think he's lying to dopes who then cry "but he doesn't want all of that free money!" as a laughable retort against him having all of that free money. He's smart for lying to the weak minded who eat that stuff up.
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HokieFanDC
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by HokieFanDC »

awesome guy wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Hokie CPA wrote:Warren Buffet is welcome to give as much as he likes to the US government. If he's so concerned, he should give more than the minimum.
I'm pointing out the stupidity in DC's retort. "But, but, but he says the freebies should end!"[While having the unexercised ability to end them himself]
What are you bitching about? Musk didn't create the subsidies. If he can benefit from them, that's just good business. I have it on good authority that using available legal means to further your business and create profit is what smart business men do.
Do you disagree, or do you think we should take away all subsidies?
I think he's lying to dopes who then cry "but he doesn't want all of that free money!" as a laughable retort against him having all of that free money. He's smart for lying to the weak minded who eat that stuff up.
"You think he's lying" isn't an argument. It's a result of your utter dislike for Musk. It's not his free money, it's free money that all automakers get. And in the electric/hybrid world, the subsidies are a bigger advantage to buyers of a mid-priced Prius/Bolt/Leaf, and less to buyers of Tesla's. Taking away subsidies will hurt Prius sales, more than it will hurt Tesla sales.
Calling Musk a leech for taking subisides, but not minding other companies getting subsidies, is hypocritical. So, do you have an ideological issue with subsidies, and think all subsidies to to "leeches", or do you just pick and choose who is a leech, and who is an honorable subsidy recipient?
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by USN_Hokie »

fatman wrote:The tax credit phases out after 200k per manufacturer.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in- ... nd-irc-30d

Tesla's credit has been exhausted. The Auto industry is rapidly moving to the EV format. Other manufacturers who haven't yet fulfilled their 200k credit will still get it, but tesla won't see any benefit.
The credit BEGINS to phase out after 200k US SALES.

Telsa won't cross that line until sometime next year most likely, and it will take over/up to 18mo to phase out.
fatman wrote:I think taxing Carbon as Exxon, Bloomberg, and others have proposed is a better incentive that this $7500 credit. New cars sales are rapidly converting to Electric. A Carbon tax might get more people out of their obsolete gas guzzlers sooner and into better new cars that are EV. If the US weren't running such a deficit, something neither Us party has any interest in curtailing, I'd favor the $7500 rebate versus the punitive tax. They don't, so I don't.
I know you're probably just trolling, but I hope you understand that energy production is about more than automobiles. That sounds like a great way to cripple the economy.
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by Hokie CPA »

As long as gasoline is selling for less than $6 per gallon in The States, gas guzzlers are nowhere near ever becoming obsolete. Not to mention, EVs come with their own enviro-baggage. Batteries have to be charged and that puts pressure on energy companies to increase their output. And eventually all those batteries will die and have to be disposed. These aren't the kinds of batteries you toss into a garbage can.
I don't care if you're a Democrat or a Republican... if you refuse to consider alternatives to the two parties, you support the Status Quo and you are a major part of the problem.

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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by awesome guy »

Hokie CPA wrote:As long as gasoline is selling for less than $6 per gallon in The States, gas guzzlers are nowhere near ever becoming obsolete. Not to mention, EVs come with their own enviro-baggage. Batteries have to be charged and that puts pressure on energy companies to increase their output. And eventually all those batteries will die and have to be disposed. These aren't the kinds of batteries you toss into a garbage can.
I think motor boats are about to be popular again with low fuel costs and high kayak costs.
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Re: Massive electric fraud

Post by USN_Hokie »

Tesla seeks to raise $1.5 bln to fund Model 3 production

http://m.nasdaq.com/article/tesla-seeks ... 0807-00182
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