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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:20 pm 
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133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
The UN has no authority or right to declare or define anything about sovereign states/countries. They can make all the proclamations they want to (and we know they are an anti-Israeli/anti-US body) but they still have no standing in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind this is the same organization that has terrorist and Islamic countries on its Human Rights Council.


If that's your belief, then there's nothing to discuss. But, your belief goes counter to what any country belonging to the UN believes, and has agreed to. You're also saying that about the international body that created the state of Israel.
If an entity wants to get recognition as a sovereign state or a country, they go to the UN to do so. What you're saying has zero basis in international law.

The UN didn't exist when Israel was created. You are misguided on this topic, having listened to the Palestinian point of view and let it cloud any rational thinking.

Tell me, does the US go to the UN for approval O anything it does as a sovereign entity?


The UN was created in 1945. Israel was created in 1948.

Do the math for me, please.



You should jus stop.

Israel was created in the 30s. The UN recognized it in the late 40s


In the 1930s it was called Palestine, and it was under British administration. It stayed that way until 1948.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:43 pm 
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RiverguyVT wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.

That's the word I was trying to reach, but couldn't ...de jeure. As in, it's an idea, but not a factual place, concrete. Exactly. Not de facto, but de jeure.

D.C. I love ya man, but you're 100% off-rail on this one.
You may even want to read up on the six day war, if you're stuck on the whole "original boundarys" argument.



Ok, first point. De Jure means rightfully, or lawfully, meaning it's rightfully and lawfully recognized as a state.
Second, I'm not stuck on any boundary argument. When Israel was recognized as a country, it did not include Jerusalem. It was officially placed under international control.
When Israel took control in the 6 day war, it was declared illegal under international law. Parts of Jerusalem are considered occupied Palestine territories, meaning that they are Palestine territories, that are under Israeli control.

You can call me off the rails, but you don't even understand the words you're using.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:47 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.


It is true that not everyone recognizes Palestine as a state.
But I was talking about Jerusalem, and all those countries you just listed, do not recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel.


My bad. It's pretty confusing keeping up with the positions you are taking. BTW, Palestine isn't a state, but more on that later.

But to your point... Israel captured Jerusalem, it's historic capital, during two wars. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, they captured and annexed West Jerusalem while Jordan annexed East Jerusalem. In 1967, they captured and annexed East Jerusalem. In 1980, Israel passed the law officially making Jerusalem its capital.

Now, the rest of the world can choose to not recognize Jerusalem as a part of Israel. That's their business. Heck, most Americans don't recognize Puerto Rico as part of the US. I personally don't care whether the rest of the world chooses to recognize that Jerusalem is a part of Israel. There are countries that don't even recognize Israel as a state. Israel won the land through war, so it's theirs to do with as they choose until someone takes it away from them. They made it their capital, and as an independent nation that is their right.

I do, however, care about US Law, and since 1995, it has been US Law recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Until the President of the United States announced that this country will follow its law and move the US embassy to Jerusalem, the prevailing position had been to invoke Section 7 of the law, as was legal for the POTUS to do iaw the law. The current POTUS has decided to not invoke Section 7 and now the Embassy will move to Jerusalem.

As for Palestine... It appears to be your position that Palestine is an actual state because the UN recognizes them as such. Per the UN,
Quote:
The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only other States and Governments may grant or withhold. It generally implies readiness to assume diplomatic relations. The United Nations is neither a State nor a Government, and therefore does not possess any authority to recognize either a State or a Government. Source:http://www.un.org/en/sections/member-states/about-un-membership/index.html


It's true that in 1988 the PLO declared independence as a government-in-exile. And it's true that the UN Secretary General recognized "the State of Palestine" even though the UN doesn't have the authority per the reference above. While there may be countries that recognize Palestine as a state, just as there are that don't recognize it. The problem comes from the fact that there have been "two-state solutions" negotiated since 1974. For this to be so, then obviously there aren't two states (Israel and Palestine). It would be illogical to think otherwise.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:55 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.

That's the word I was trying to reach, but couldn't ...de jeure. As in, it's an idea, but not a factual place, concrete. Exactly. Not de facto, but de jeure.

D.C. I love ya man, but you're 100% off-rail on this one.
You may even want to read up on the six day war, if you're stuck on the whole "original boundarys" argument.



Ok, first point. De Jure means rightfully, or lawfully, meaning it's rightfully and lawfully recognized as a state.
Second, I'm not stuck on any boundary argument. When Israel was recognized as a country, it did not include Jerusalem. It was officially placed under international control.
When Israel took control in the 6 day war, it was declared illegal under international law. Parts of Jerusalem are considered occupied Palestine territories, meaning that they are Palestine territories, that are under Israeli control.

You can call me off the rails, but you don't even understand the words you're using.


No one is arguing that the Palestinian Authority isn't legal. It is. It is the legal government for the Palestine Mandate. But it's not a state.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.


It is true that not everyone recognizes Palestine as a state.
But I was talking about Jerusalem, and all those countries you just listed, do not recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel.


My bad. It's pretty confusing keeping up with the positions you are taking. BTW, Palestine isn't a state, but more on that later.

But to your point... Israel captured Jerusalem, it's historic capital, during two wars. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, they captured and annexed West Jerusalem while Jordan annexed East Jerusalem. In 1967, they captured and annexed East Jerusalem. In 1980, Israel passed the law officially making Jerusalem its capital.

Now, the rest of the world can choose to not recognize Jerusalem as a part of Israel. That's their business. Heck, most Americans don't recognize Puerto Rico as part of the US. I personally don't care whether the rest of the world chooses to recognize that Jerusalem is a part of Israel. There are countries that don't even recognize Israel as a state. Israel won the land through war, so it's theirs to do with as they choose until someone takes it away from them. They made it their capital, and as an independent nation that is their right.

I do, however, care about US Law, and since 1995, it has been US Law recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Until the President of the United States announced that this country will follow its law and move the US embassy to Jerusalem, the prevailing position had been to invoke Section 7 of the law, as was legal for the POTUS to do iaw the law. The current POTUS has decided to not invoke Section 7 and now the Embassy will move to Jerusalem.

As for Palestine... It appears to be your position that Palestine is an actual state because the UN recognizes them as such. Per the UN,
Quote:
The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only other States and Governments may grant or withhold. It generally implies readiness to assume diplomatic relations. The United Nations is neither a State nor a Government, and therefore does not possess any authority to recognize either a State or a Government. Source:http://www.un.org/en/sections/member-states/about-un-membership/index.html


It's true that in 1988 the PLO declared independence as a government-in-exile. And it's true that the UN Secretary General recognized "the State of Palestine" even though the UN doesn't have the authority per the reference above. While there may be countries that recognize Palestine as a state, just as there are that don't recognize it. The problem comes from the fact that there have been "two-state solutions" negotiated since 1974. For this to be so, then obviously there aren't two states (Israel and Palestine). It would be illogical to think otherwise.


I didn't change my stance, you changed the subject from Jerusalem to Palestine.

So, let's explore your posting about state/country status. It is true that only states and governments can recognize states. In the case of the UN, states and governments recognize the status of other states and governments by voting on their membership into the UN. In the case of Palestine, around 82% of all countries recognize Palestine as a state, and the UN as a body has accepted Palestine into the UN as a non-member State (whatever that means).

And by the same token, states and governments are the only ones that can recognize another country or state's claim to land, and in the case of Jerusalem, the US is the only to fully recognize that, with Russia and now Czech Republic recognizing the capital as a portion of Jerusalem.

If you claim that Palestine is not a state based on not every country recognizing it as such, then the argument for Jerusalem as a capital is incredibly weak.
In addition, the International Court does have jurisdiction over territorial disputes and issues, and in this case, they have found the Israeli occupation of Jerusalem illegal. Israel signed the charter agreeing to allow the ICJ to decide international law, they have just chosen to ignore it in this case.

As for the two-state solution, the issue isn't that there aren't two states, the issue is that there is no agreed border for the two states, and it mainly centers around Jerusalem.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.

That's the word I was trying to reach, but couldn't ...de jeure. As in, it's an idea, but not a factual place, concrete. Exactly. Not de facto, but de jeure.

D.C. I love ya man, but you're 100% off-rail on this one.
You may even want to read up on the six day war, if you're stuck on the whole "original boundarys" argument.



Ok, first point. De Jure means rightfully, or lawfully, meaning it's rightfully and lawfully recognized as a state.
Second, I'm not stuck on any boundary argument. When Israel was recognized as a country, it did not include Jerusalem. It was officially placed under international control.
When Israel took control in the 6 day war, it was declared illegal under international law. Parts of Jerusalem are considered occupied Palestine territories, meaning that they are Palestine territories, that are under Israeli control.

You can call me off the rails, but you don't even understand the words you're using.


No one is arguing that the Palestinian Authority isn't legal. It is. It is the legal government for the Palestine Mandate. But it's not a state.


The Palestine Mandate ended in 1948.....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:14 am 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


We've had that position for decades, this is just the first president with the balls to enforce it. Don't pretend the US is alone, either. WADR, your position here is embarrassing.


Russia has recognized the western part of Jerusalem as the capital, but not all of it. The Czech Republic did the same thing today.
Name 5 countries that recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

It should be easy for you to do so and REALLY embarrass me.


You've already embarrassed yourself by conceding you lied above. You've done the work for me! :roll: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:16 am 
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PLOFanDC hardest hit...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:30 am 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.


It is true that not everyone recognizes Palestine as a state.
But I was talking about Jerusalem, and all those countries you just listed, do not recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel.


My bad. It's pretty confusing keeping up with the positions you are taking. BTW, Palestine isn't a state, but more on that later.

But to your point... Israel captured Jerusalem, it's historic capital, during two wars. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, they captured and annexed West Jerusalem while Jordan annexed East Jerusalem. In 1967, they captured and annexed East Jerusalem. In 1980, Israel passed the law officially making Jerusalem its capital.

Now, the rest of the world can choose to not recognize Jerusalem as a part of Israel. That's their business. Heck, most Americans don't recognize Puerto Rico as part of the US. I personally don't care whether the rest of the world chooses to recognize that Jerusalem is a part of Israel. There are countries that don't even recognize Israel as a state. Israel won the land through war, so it's theirs to do with as they choose until someone takes it away from them. They made it their capital, and as an independent nation that is their right.

I do, however, care about US Law, and since 1995, it has been US Law recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Until the President of the United States announced that this country will follow its law and move the US embassy to Jerusalem, the prevailing position had been to invoke Section 7 of the law, as was legal for the POTUS to do iaw the law. The current POTUS has decided to not invoke Section 7 and now the Embassy will move to Jerusalem.

As for Palestine... It appears to be your position that Palestine is an actual state because the UN recognizes them as such. Per the UN,
Quote:
The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only other States and Governments may grant or withhold. It generally implies readiness to assume diplomatic relations. The United Nations is neither a State nor a Government, and therefore does not possess any authority to recognize either a State or a Government. Source:http://www.un.org/en/sections/member-states/about-un-membership/index.html


It's true that in 1988 the PLO declared independence as a government-in-exile. And it's true that the UN Secretary General recognized "the State of Palestine" even though the UN doesn't have the authority per the reference above. While there may be countries that recognize Palestine as a state, just as there are that don't recognize it. The problem comes from the fact that there have been "two-state solutions" negotiated since 1974. For this to be so, then obviously there aren't two states (Israel and Palestine). It would be illogical to think otherwise.


I didn't change my stance, you changed the subject from Jerusalem to Palestine.

So, let's explore your posting about state/country status. It is true that only states and governments can recognize states. In the case of the UN, states and governments recognize the status of other states and governments by voting on their membership into the UN. In the case of Palestine, around 82% of all countries recognize Palestine as a state, and the UN as a body has accepted Palestine into the UN as a non-member State (whatever that means).

And by the same token, states and governments are the only ones that can recognize another country or state's claim to land, and in the case of Jerusalem, the US is the only to fully recognize that, with Russia and now Czech Republic recognizing the capital as a portion of Jerusalem.

If you claim that Palestine is not a state based on not every country recognizing it as such, then the argument for Jerusalem as a capital is incredibly weak.
In addition, the International Court does have jurisdiction over territorial disputes and issues, and in this case, they have found the Israeli occupation of Jerusalem illegal. Israel signed the charter agreeing to allow the ICJ to decide international law, they have just chosen to ignore it in this case.

As for the two-state solution, the issue isn't that there aren't two states, the issue is that there is no agreed border for the two states, and it mainly centers around Jerusalem.
UhgImage

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:51 am 
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awesome guy wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.


It is true that not everyone recognizes Palestine as a state.
But I was talking about Jerusalem, and all those countries you just listed, do not recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel.


My bad. It's pretty confusing keeping up with the positions you are taking. BTW, Palestine isn't a state, but more on that later.

But to your point... Israel captured Jerusalem, it's historic capital, during two wars. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, they captured and annexed West Jerusalem while Jordan annexed East Jerusalem. In 1967, they captured and annexed East Jerusalem. In 1980, Israel passed the law officially making Jerusalem its capital.

Now, the rest of the world can choose to not recognize Jerusalem as a part of Israel. That's their business. Heck, most Americans don't recognize Puerto Rico as part of the US. I personally don't care whether the rest of the world chooses to recognize that Jerusalem is a part of Israel. There are countries that don't even recognize Israel as a state. Israel won the land through war, so it's theirs to do with as they choose until someone takes it away from them. They made it their capital, and as an independent nation that is their right.

I do, however, care about US Law, and since 1995, it has been US Law recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Until the President of the United States announced that this country will follow its law and move the US embassy to Jerusalem, the prevailing position had been to invoke Section 7 of the law, as was legal for the POTUS to do iaw the law. The current POTUS has decided to not invoke Section 7 and now the Embassy will move to Jerusalem.

As for Palestine... It appears to be your position that Palestine is an actual state because the UN recognizes them as such. Per the UN,
Quote:
The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only other States and Governments may grant or withhold. It generally implies readiness to assume diplomatic relations. The United Nations is neither a State nor a Government, and therefore does not possess any authority to recognize either a State or a Government. Source:http://www.un.org/en/sections/member-states/about-un-membership/index.html


It's true that in 1988 the PLO declared independence as a government-in-exile. And it's true that the UN Secretary General recognized "the State of Palestine" even though the UN doesn't have the authority per the reference above. While there may be countries that recognize Palestine as a state, just as there are that don't recognize it. The problem comes from the fact that there have been "two-state solutions" negotiated since 1974. For this to be so, then obviously there aren't two states (Israel and Palestine). It would be illogical to think otherwise.


I didn't change my stance, you changed the subject from Jerusalem to Palestine.

So, let's explore your posting about state/country status. It is true that only states and governments can recognize states. In the case of the UN, states and governments recognize the status of other states and governments by voting on their membership into the UN. In the case of Palestine, around 82% of all countries recognize Palestine as a state, and the UN as a body has accepted Palestine into the UN as a non-member State (whatever that means).

And by the same token, states and governments are the only ones that can recognize another country or state's claim to land, and in the case of Jerusalem, the US is the only to fully recognize that, with Russia and now Czech Republic recognizing the capital as a portion of Jerusalem.

If you claim that Palestine is not a state based on not every country recognizing it as such, then the argument for Jerusalem as a capital is incredibly weak.
In addition, the International Court does have jurisdiction over territorial disputes and issues, and in this case, they have found the Israeli occupation of Jerusalem illegal. Israel signed the charter agreeing to allow the ICJ to decide international law, they have just chosen to ignore it in this case.

As for the two-state solution, the issue isn't that there aren't two states, the issue is that there is no agreed border for the two states, and it mainly centers around Jerusalem.
UhgImage


The muddled history of the middle east is fertile soil for DC's famous nitpickery.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:55 am 
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HokieFanDC wrote:

Ok, first point. De Jure means rightfully, or lawfully, meaning it's rightfully and lawfully recognized as a state.
Second, I'm not stuck on any boundary argument. When Israel was recognized as a country, it did not include Jerusalem. It was officially placed under international control.
When Israel took control in the 6 day war, it was declared illegal under international law. Parts of Jerusalem are considered occupied Palestine territories, meaning that they are Palestine territories, that are under Israeli control.

You can call me off the rails, but you don't even understand the words you're using.



Can you clarify your position in this argument? Do you think Trump recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel is right or wrong? Israel acquired Jerusalem as a result of the 6 day war (that they did not initiate). Fighting and winning wars is the typical way that territory is acquired. Just because the "international" community does not like the result does not change the result. So Israel controls Jerusalem and has declared it to be its Capital. The US/Trump is merely recognizing what Israel has already declared.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:15 am 
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UpstateSCHokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

Ok, first point. De Jure means rightfully, or lawfully, meaning it's rightfully and lawfully recognized as a state.
Second, I'm not stuck on any boundary argument. When Israel was recognized as a country, it did not include Jerusalem. It was officially placed under international control.
When Israel took control in the 6 day war, it was declared illegal under international law. Parts of Jerusalem are considered occupied Palestine territories, meaning that they are Palestine territories, that are under Israeli control.

You can call me off the rails, but you don't even understand the words you're using.



Can you clarify your position in this argument? Do you think Trump recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel is right or wrong? Israel acquired Jerusalem as a result of the 6 day war (that they did not initiate). Fighting and winning wars is the typical way that territory is acquired. Just because the "international" community does not like the result does not change the result. So Israel controls Jerusalem and has declared it to be its Capital. The US/Trump is merely recognizing what Israel has already declared.


He should change his handle to HokieFanUSoccupiedcapitalofBritishcolony :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:11 am 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.

That's the word I was trying to reach, but couldn't ...de jeure. As in, it's an idea, but not a factual place, concrete. Exactly. Not de facto, but de jeure.

D.C. I love ya man, but you're 100% off-rail on this one.
You may even want to read up on the six day war, if you're stuck on the whole "original boundarys" argument.



Ok, first point. De Jure means rightfully, or lawfully, meaning it's rightfully and lawfully recognized as a state.
Second, I'm not stuck on any boundary argument. When Israel was recognized as a country, it did not include Jerusalem. It was officially placed under international control.
When Israel took control in the 6 day war, it was declared illegal under international law. Parts of Jerusalem are considered occupied Palestine territories, meaning that they are Palestine territories, that are under Israeli control.

You can call me off the rails, but you don't even understand the words you're using.


LOL. That wasn't nice. Just because I confessed to knowing a word was out there, but at the moment of posting was unable to retrieve it, does not mean that I don't know what the word (expression) means! Look at the root -jure. (You could have grammar policed me for my misspelling) Yes. It means "by law". My description was not at all incorrect. They are not --SPECIFICALLY!!-- a "de facto" state. Again, re-read my post..I was correct. Palestine, as a state, is an idea, not a physical entity. By law (i.e. "idea"), but not by fact (de facto), i.e., a physical place.

An entity that is recognized as an idea, but not as a physical place, cannot in turn (using logic here, so keep up) have "a place" as its subset (capitol).

Yeah. Palestine is de jure, but not de facto. BINGO!! That's my point.

I encourage you to read up more on Israeli history... it is good for one's soul as well as understanding. Specifically, read up on where the so-called "palestinians" of the present day came from. (Hint: they're not from there).

I read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_an ... mised_Land
years ago upon the recommendation of "PurpleTurkey" (or something like that) on the old UWS. Good read that leans palestinian, but overall, does a good job explaining things.

If you'd like a pro-Israel read of a spiritual bent, I enjoyed :
https://www.amazon.com/Why-Care-about-I ... 0800793439
and really enjoyed it.

Referring back to your "original borders" condition w.r.t. Israel/Jerusalem only, and not holding other de facto nations to that same standard is very problematic, and dare I say?, anti-Semitic ..


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:39 pm 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


We've had that position for decades, this is just the first president with the balls to enforce it. Don't pretend the US is alone, either. WADR, your position here is embarrassing.


Russia has recognized the western part of Jerusalem as the capital, but not all of it. The Czech Republic did the same thing today.
Name 5 countries that recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

It should be easy for you to do so and REALLY embarrass me.


You've already embarrassed yourself by conceding you lied above. You've done the work for me! :roll: :mrgreen:


Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:47 pm 
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RiverguyVT wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.

That's the word I was trying to reach, but couldn't ...de jeure. As in, it's an idea, but not a factual place, concrete. Exactly. Not de facto, but de jeure.

D.C. I love ya man, but you're 100% off-rail on this one.
You may even want to read up on the six day war, if you're stuck on the whole "original boundarys" argument.



Ok, first point. De Jure means rightfully, or lawfully, meaning it's rightfully and lawfully recognized as a state.
Second, I'm not stuck on any boundary argument. When Israel was recognized as a country, it did not include Jerusalem. It was officially placed under international control.
When Israel took control in the 6 day war, it was declared illegal under international law. Parts of Jerusalem are considered occupied Palestine territories, meaning that they are Palestine territories, that are under Israeli control.

You can call me off the rails, but you don't even understand the words you're using.


LOL. That wasn't nice. Just because I confessed to knowing a word was out there, but at the moment of posting was unable to retrieve it, does not mean that I don't know what the word (expression) means! Look at the root -jure. (You could have grammar policed me for my misspelling) Yes. It means "by law". My description was not at all incorrect. They are not --SPECIFICALLY!!-- a "de facto" state. Again, re-read my post..I was correct. Palestine, as a state, is an idea, not a physical entity. By law (i.e. "idea"), but not by fact (de facto), i.e., a physical place.

An entity that is recognized as an idea, but not as a physical place, cannot in turn (using logic here, so keep up) have "a place" as its subset (capitol).

Yeah. Palestine is de jure, but not de facto. BINGO!! That's my point.

I encourage you to read up more on Israeli history... it is good for one's soul as well as understanding. Specifically, read up on where the so-called "palestinians" of the present day came from. (Hint: they're not from there).

I read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_an ... mised_Land
years ago upon the recommendation of "PurpleTurkey" (or something like that) on the old UWS. Good read that leans palestinian, but overall, does a good job explaining things.

If you'd like a pro-Israel read of a spiritual bent, I enjoyed :
https://www.amazon.com/Why-Care-about-I ... 0800793439
and really enjoyed it.

Referring back to your "original borders" condition w.r.t. Israel/Jerusalem only, and not holding other de facto nations to that same standard is very problematic, and dare I say?, anti-Semitic ..


De jure is a higher authority then de facto. We're talking about the legal status.
As for the history, I know it. I don't have any admiration for the PLO/Hamas, and I would prefer they just move them to Jordan. But the historical significance of Jerusalem is such that it shouldn't belong solely to a Jewish state. They need to come to some agreement. I am more sympathetic to Israel because of their size vs the Arab world, but that doesn't change the actual legal standing of Jerusalem and Palestine, which you guys seem to not understand, or just don't care about.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:37 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
[quote="HokieFanDC"]

That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


We've had that position for decades, this is just the first president with the balls to enforce it. Don't pretend the US is alone, either. WADR, your position here is embarrassing.


Russia has recognized the western part of Jerusalem as the capital, but not all of it. The Czech Republic did the same thing today.
Name 5 countries that recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

It should be easy for you to do so and REALLY embarrass me.


You've already embarrassed yourself by conceding you lied above. You've done the work for me! :roll: :mrgreen:


Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.[/quote]

This is all correct. Don’t let the radicals at the cool lunch table make you think that it’s your position that is incorrect, or outside of the mainstream. They all live in their insular world, based on alternative facts of their own making.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:50 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:

Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.


where are you going with this? You already admitted you lied. There's nowhere else to go with this conversation except for you to apologize.

_________________
“At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.”

― P.J. O'Rourke


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Posts: 8979
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.


where are you going with this? You already admitted you lied. There's nowhere else to go with this conversation except for you to apologize.


Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Quote:
This is all correct. Don’t let the radicals at the cool lunch table make you think that it’s your position that is incorrect, or outside of the mainstream. They all live in their insular world, based on alternative facts of their own making.

Where ever I sit is always the cool table.
8-)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:25 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.


where are you going with this? You already admitted you lied. There's nowhere else to go with this conversation except for you to apologize.


Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize.


You're wrong, but accuse others of having comprehension problems. Classic. :lol:

Your poor wife deserves a medal for putting up with you.

MrsHokieFanDC: "You left black smudges on the floor"
HokieFanDC: "No I didn't. The smudges are a burnt umber!"
MrsHokieFanDC: "Ok, you left burnt umber smudges on the floor."
HokieFanDC: "Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize!"

:lol: :mrgreen:

Seriously, that's every HokieFanDC thread.

_________________
“At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.”

― P.J. O'Rourke


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Posts: 8979
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.


where are you going with this? You already admitted you lied. There's nowhere else to go with this conversation except for you to apologize.


Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize.


You're wrong, but accuse others of having comprehension problems. Classic. :lol:

Your poor wife deserves a medal for putting up with you.

MrsHokieFanDC: "You left black smudges on the floor"
HokieFanDC: "No I didn't. The smudges are a burnt umber!"
MrsHokieFanDC: "Ok, you left burnt umber smudges on the floor."
HokieFanDC: "Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize!"

:lol: :mrgreen:

Seriously, that's every HokieFanDC thread.


You're the idiot that said this, "Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.", in response to this,

"Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel. This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to."

The part that I wrote is completely true. The part you wrote is just snarky idiocy..

The truth is that the international community does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
You can't even name 5 countries that have that perspective. I can name 50 off the top of my head. It's easy of course, you just have to start naming any country to get that list going.

Here's another nugget for you.
Here's the Czech perspective from 12/6/17, "considers the city (Jerusalem) to be the future capital of both Israel and Palestine."

Seriously, you don't even know when you're wrong, and instead of making even a small effort (naming 5 countries that don't agree with my perspective), you keep on being snarky. That's what people do when they find themselves in a gunfight, that they started, but realize they came to the fight with no ammo.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:19 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.


where are you going with this? You already admitted you lied. There's nowhere else to go with this conversation except for you to apologize.


Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize.


You're wrong, but accuse others of having comprehension problems. Classic. :lol:

Your poor wife deserves a medal for putting up with you.

MrsHokieFanDC: "You left black smudges on the floor"
HokieFanDC: "No I didn't. The smudges are a burnt umber!"
MrsHokieFanDC: "Ok, you left burnt umber smudges on the floor."
HokieFanDC: "Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize!"

:lol: :mrgreen:

Seriously, that's every HokieFanDC thread.


You're the idiot that said this, "Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.", in response to this,

"Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel. This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to."

The part that I wrote is completely true. The part you wrote is just snarky idiocy..

The truth is that the international community does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
You can't even name 5 countries that have that perspective. I can name 50 off the top of my head. It's easy of course, you just have to start naming any country to get that list going.

Here's another nugget for you.
Here's the Czech perspective from 12/6/17, "considers the city (Jerusalem) to be the future capital of both Israel and Palestine."

Seriously, you don't even know when you're wrong, and instead of making even a small effort (naming 5 countries that don't agree with my perspective), you keep on being snarky. That's what people do when they find themselves in a gunfight, that they started, but realize they came to the fight with no ammo.


Nope, you (purposely) conflate East Jerusalem with Jerusalem and the rest of your argument is hinged on stupid, meaningless UN resolutions. Have a nice day.

_________________
“At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.”

― P.J. O'Rourke


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:57 pm
Posts: 8979
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

Try harder.
Israel claims all of Jerusalem as their capital. Neither Russia or Czech agrees. It's unclear what the US stance is, it wasn't clarified.
Even if I concede that, the perspective of the international community is still exactly what I I posted.
And the reaction from everyone, including Russia, to the US Embassy move is negative. Your claim that the stance is a PLO perspective is ignoring what all the other countries think.
Ignoring facts is your MO. When you're called out, you call people names. Yet you still can't name 5 countries that agree with the Trump move.


where are you going with this? You already admitted you lied. There's nowhere else to go with this conversation except for you to apologize.


Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize.


You're wrong, but accuse others of having comprehension problems. Classic. :lol:

Your poor wife deserves a medal for putting up with you.

MrsHokieFanDC: "You left black smudges on the floor"
HokieFanDC: "No I didn't. The smudges are a burnt umber!"
MrsHokieFanDC: "Ok, you left burnt umber smudges on the floor."
HokieFanDC: "Your comprehension failings don't require me to apologize!"

:lol: :mrgreen:

Seriously, that's every HokieFanDC thread.


You're the idiot that said this, "Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.", in response to this,

"Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel. This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to."

The part that I wrote is completely true. The part you wrote is just snarky idiocy..

The truth is that the international community does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
You can't even name 5 countries that have that perspective. I can name 50 off the top of my head. It's easy of course, you just have to start naming any country to get that list going.

Here's another nugget for you.
Here's the Czech perspective from 12/6/17, "considers the city (Jerusalem) to be the future capital of both Israel and Palestine."

Seriously, you don't even know when you're wrong, and instead of making even a small effort (naming 5 countries that don't agree with my perspective), you keep on being snarky. That's what people do when they find themselves in a gunfight, that they started, but realize they came to the fight with no ammo.


Nope, you (purposely) conflate East Jerusalem with Jerusalem and the rest of your argument is hinged on stupid, meaningless UN resolutions. Have a nice day.


Not sure what that has to do with your snarky, moronic statement, other than to deflect from how moronic it was. But, I'm not conflating anything. Israel's view is that, and I quote their law, "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel." Are they conflating?
As for the rest of my argument, it's based on the perspective of 99% of the international community (which you phrased as PLO/Hamas perspective).
It isn't based on any UN resolution, but if you want to go there, have at it.
Every country signed the UN charter, which binds them to those resolutions, and also to the decisions of the International Court, UN Sec Council, and UN Gen Assembly, all of whom have found the occupation of West Bank and Gaza illegal. It's not meaningless, unless you are just fine with ignoring our agreements.

You have a nice day, also.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Am I going to have to pull the car over and separate you two!?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:56 pm 
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RiverguyVT wrote:
Am I going to have to pull the car over and separate you two!?


He started it!


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