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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:21 pm 
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TheH2 wrote:
The populace surrounds Tel Aviv. What's the benefit?


The capitol is Jerusalem. Embassies belong in the capitol. This isn't hard, unless you don't think Israel has a right to exist.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:24 pm 
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TheH2 wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Uh, Jerusalem- it's where the host country prefers it to be? A pretty important matter (especially given last week's thread on state dept issues). It's the capital.

By your logic, why not put the French Embassy in Cannes, since it is really nice there? Why wouldn't (your logic) other countries put their US embassies at the Grand Canyon, Maui, or Lake Tahoe? You know, because it's nice in those places.

None should be in DC. If population is your criteria, then embassies should be in LA, Houston, Chicago, Phily, or NYC. But not D.C.


Being in the nicest location was a joke. See Mattis quote - seems like he knows where the people he needs to talk to are.


Mattis is Secdef last I checked.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:33 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:



:lol:


+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:14 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:

That same international community did not create Israel with the provsio that Israel would for evermore be controlled by the international community. What you are suggesting is that Israel is not a free and independent self governing state. They are.

Edited to add: Jerusalem is indeed legally part of Israel; not only that it is indeed the capital.


The international community doesn’t control Israel, but Jerusalem is not part of Israel.
Not sure why you think Jerusalem is legally part of Jerusalem. It’s clearly not.
International law matters, and Israel is subject to it. They have agreed to that fact.
East Jerusalem is recognized as occupied Palestinian territory and as a part of Palestine. Israel itself doesn’t make the claim that it has annexed East Jerusalem.

Palestine has also signed into law that Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. Does that make their claim true and valid?

Palestine is not a country. It's a fabrication. It has no status.


See above.

Key date. 11/29/12.

Jordan was established as the Palestinian state


No. The UN recognized the State of Palestine as a separate state with it's own sovereign status. Again, 11/29/12. The UN is the international body with the authority to grant state/country status, and State status was granted to Palestine. You can argue that it is a silly status, but it still has that status, and the ability to act as a sovereign country with regard to intl law, agreements, courts, etc.

And by the same governing bodies, Jerusalem is not part of Israel. As of today, there are now 2 entities that recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel, the US and Israel. No one else.

The UN has no authority or right to declare or define anything about sovereign states/countries. They can make all the proclamations they want to (and we know they are an anti-Israeli/anti-US body) but they still have no standing in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind this is the same organization that has terrorist and Islamic countries on its Human Rights Council.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:34 pm 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
TheH2 wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
Uh, Jerusalem- it's where the host country prefers it to be? A pretty important matter (especially given last week's thread on state dept issues). It's the capital.

By your logic, why not put the French Embassy in Cannes, since it is really nice there? Why wouldn't (your logic) other countries put their US embassies at the Grand Canyon, Maui, or Lake Tahoe? You know, because it's nice in those places.

None should be in DC. If population is your criteria, then embassies should be in LA, Houston, Chicago, Phily, or NYC. But not D.C.


Being in the nicest location was a joke. See Mattis quote - seems like he knows where the people he needs to talk to are.


Mattis is Secdef last I checked.


I respect Mattis' opinion and is someone within the administration. He knows where the embassy needs to be and made a pretty simple, and valid, argument.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:35 pm 
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133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
Palestine is not a country. It's a fabrication. It has no status.


See above.

Key date. 11/29/12.

Jordan was established as the Palestinian state


No. The UN recognized the State of Palestine as a separate state with it's own sovereign status. Again, 11/29/12. The UN is the international body with the authority to grant state/country status, and State status was granted to Palestine. You can argue that it is a silly status, but it still has that status, and the ability to act as a sovereign country with regard to intl law, agreements, courts, etc.

And by the same governing bodies, Jerusalem is not part of Israel. As of today, there are now 2 entities that recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel, the US and Israel. No one else.

The UN has no authority or right to declare or define anything about sovereign states/countries. They can make all the proclamations they want to (and we know they are an anti-Israeli/anti-US body) but they still have no standing in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind this is the same organization that has terrorist and Islamic countries on its Human Rights Council.


If that's your belief, then there's nothing to discuss. But, your belief goes counter to what any country belonging to the UN believes, and has agreed to. You're also saying that about the international body that created the state of Israel.
If an entity wants to get recognition as a sovereign state or a country, they go to the UN to do so. What you're saying has zero basis in international law.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:



:lol:


+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:45 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:



:lol:


+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.

Thank you for Germany's perspective!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:26 pm 
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TheH2 wrote:
TheH2 wrote:

Quote:
"The capital of Israel that I go to, sir, is Tel Aviv, sir, because that's where all their government people are," Mattis said.


Of course Mattis deals with Tel Aviv. That's where IDF headquarters are. Using a statement by Mattis is a silly argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Jack Galt wrote:
TheH2 wrote:
TheH2 wrote:

Quote:
"The capital of Israel that I go to, sir, is Tel Aviv, sir, because that's where all their government people are," Mattis said.


Of course Mattis deals with Tel Aviv. That's where IDF headquarters are. Using a statement by Mattis is a silly argument.

He's relevant. Tillerson has a similar opinion, but I put more stock in Mattis.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:38 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
Palestine is not a country. It's a fabrication. It has no status.


See above.

Key date. 11/29/12.

Jordan was established as the Palestinian state


No. The UN recognized the State of Palestine as a separate state with it's own sovereign status. Again, 11/29/12. The UN is the international body with the authority to grant state/country status, and State status was granted to Palestine. You can argue that it is a silly status, but it still has that status, and the ability to act as a sovereign country with regard to intl law, agreements, courts, etc.

And by the same governing bodies, Jerusalem is not part of Israel. As of today, there are now 2 entities that recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel, the US and Israel. No one else.

The UN has no authority or right to declare or define anything about sovereign states/countries. They can make all the proclamations they want to (and we know they are an anti-Israeli/anti-US body) but they still have no standing in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind this is the same organization that has terrorist and Islamic countries on its Human Rights Council.


If that's your belief, then there's nothing to discuss. But, your belief goes counter to what any country belonging to the UN believes, and has agreed to. You're also saying that about the international body that created the state of Israel.
If an entity wants to get recognition as a sovereign state or a country, they go to the UN to do so. What you're saying has zero basis in international law.

The UN didn't exist when Israel was created. You are misguided on this topic, having listened to the Palestinian point of view and let it cloud any rational thinking.

Tell me, does the US go to the UN for approval O anything it does as a sovereign entity?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:40 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:



:lol:


+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.

This has been the official position of tge US since 1995. Trump was just the first president to not worry about upsetting the Arabs.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:47 pm 
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TheH2 wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
TheH2 wrote:
TheH2 wrote:

Quote:
"The capital of Israel that I go to, sir, is Tel Aviv, sir, because that's where all their government people are," Mattis said.


Of course Mattis deals with Tel Aviv. That's where IDF headquarters are. Using a statement by Mattis is a silly argument.

He's relevant. Tillerson has a similar opinion, but I put more stock in Mattis.


Well, US law recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It has since November 8, 1995. I believe that was before Mattis became SecDef and Tillerson became SoS.

https://www.congress.gov/104/plaws/publ45/PLAW-104publ45.pdf

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 pm 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:



:lol:


+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


Pretty much this


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:06 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:



:lol:


+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


We've had that position for decades, this is just the first president with the balls to enforce it. Don't pretend the US is alone, either. WADR, your position here is embarrassing.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Jack Galt wrote:
TheH2 wrote:
Jack Galt wrote:
TheH2 wrote:
TheH2 wrote:

Quote:
"The capital of Israel that I go to, sir, is Tel Aviv, sir, because that's where all their government people are," Mattis said.


Of course Mattis deals with Tel Aviv. That's where IDF headquarters are. Using a statement by Mattis is a silly argument.

He's relevant. Tillerson has a similar opinion, but I put more stock in Mattis.


Well, US law recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It has since November 8, 1995. I believe that was before Mattis became SecDef and Tillerson became SoS.

https://www.congress.gov/104/plaws/publ45/PLAW-104publ45.pdf


According to DC, that must mean today is November 9th, 1995. Fire up the DeLorean.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:15 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.

That's the word I was trying to reach, but couldn't ...de jeure. As in, it's an idea, but not a factual place, concrete. Exactly. Not de facto, but de jeure.

D.C. I love ya man, but you're 100% off-rail on this one.
You may even want to read up on the six day war, if you're stuck on the whole "original boundarys" argument.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:01 pm 
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133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
Jordan was established as the Palestinian state


No. The UN recognized the State of Palestine as a separate state with it's own sovereign status. Again, 11/29/12. The UN is the international body with the authority to grant state/country status, and State status was granted to Palestine. You can argue that it is a silly status, but it still has that status, and the ability to act as a sovereign country with regard to intl law, agreements, courts, etc.

And by the same governing bodies, Jerusalem is not part of Israel. As of today, there are now 2 entities that recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel, the US and Israel. No one else.

The UN has no authority or right to declare or define anything about sovereign states/countries. They can make all the proclamations they want to (and we know they are an anti-Israeli/anti-US body) but they still have no standing in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind this is the same organization that has terrorist and Islamic countries on its Human Rights Council.


If that's your belief, then there's nothing to discuss. But, your belief goes counter to what any country belonging to the UN believes, and has agreed to. You're also saying that about the international body that created the state of Israel.
If an entity wants to get recognition as a sovereign state or a country, they go to the UN to do so. What you're saying has zero basis in international law.

The UN didn't exist when Israel was created. You are misguided on this topic, having listened to the Palestinian point of view and let it cloud any rational thinking.

Tell me, does the US go to the UN for approval O anything it does as a sovereign entity?


The UN was created in 1945. Israel was created in 1948.

Do the math for me, please.



You should jus stop.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Jack Galt wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


Actually, no. There are 50 UN member states that do not recognize Palestine as a true state, including Australia, UK, Spain, South Korea, Germany and France. Most do recognize the Palestinian Authority as the head of a de jure state, but the territory they control is actually part of Israel.


It is true that not everyone recognizes Palestine as a state.
But I was talking about Jerusalem, and all those countries you just listed, do not recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
Jordan was established as the Palestinian state


No. The UN recognized the State of Palestine as a separate state with it's own sovereign status. Again, 11/29/12. The UN is the international body with the authority to grant state/country status, and State status was granted to Palestine. You can argue that it is a silly status, but it still has that status, and the ability to act as a sovereign country with regard to intl law, agreements, courts, etc.

And by the same governing bodies, Jerusalem is not part of Israel. As of today, there are now 2 entities that recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel, the US and Israel. No one else.

The UN has no authority or right to declare or define anything about sovereign states/countries. They can make all the proclamations they want to (and we know they are an anti-Israeli/anti-US body) but they still have no standing in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind this is the same organization that has terrorist and Islamic countries on its Human Rights Council.


If that's your belief, then there's nothing to discuss. But, your belief goes counter to what any country belonging to the UN believes, and has agreed to. You're also saying that about the international body that created the state of Israel.
If an entity wants to get recognition as a sovereign state or a country, they go to the UN to do so. What you're saying has zero basis in international law.

The UN didn't exist when Israel was created. You are misguided on this topic, having listened to the Palestinian point of view and let it cloud any rational thinking.

Tell me, does the US go to the UN for approval O anything it does as a sovereign entity?


The UN was created in 1945. Israel was created in 1948.

Do the math for me, please.



You should jus stop.

Israel was created in the 30s. The UN recognized it in the late 40s


Last edited by 133743Hokie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 pm 
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133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:

+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.

This has been the official position of tge US since 1995. Trump was just the first president to not worry about upsetting the Arabs.


Not exactly true. Congress doesn't have the authority to recognize foreign governments, only the POTUS has that authority. That is why it hasn't been an actual position until yesterday.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:10 pm 
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HokieFanDC wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:

+2


That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.

This has been the official position of tge US since 1995. Trump was just the first president to not worry about upsetting the Arabs.


Not exactly true. Congress doesn't have the authority to recognize foreign governments, only the POTUS has that authority. That is why it hasn't been an actual position until yesterday.

See Bill Clinton


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:13 pm 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieFanDC wrote:

That’s ignorant. Israel named Jerusalem it’s capital in 1980. They can proclaim anything they want.

Jerusalem has never been recognized by the international community as the capital because it’s not legally part of Israel.
This is the same international community that took Palestine, divided it, and created Israel as a nation for Jews. So, I think the same entity that created the country, has some say in what land they have rights to, and don’t have rights to.


Thank you for the Hamas/PLO perspective.


That is the same perspective that every country, except the US, has. And the US has now had that position for exactly one day.


We've had that position for decades, this is just the first president with the balls to enforce it. Don't pretend the US is alone, either. WADR, your position here is embarrassing.


Russia has recognized the western part of Jerusalem as the capital, but not all of it. The Czech Republic did the same thing today.
Name 5 countries that recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

It should be easy for you to do so and REALLY embarrass me.


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