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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:37 am 
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I'm sure this will derail but I hope it doesn't. I'm generally curious what some of you think about this, especially those who have a strong grasp of it (Valencia, you seem to always knock these out of the park).

I ask this question because it's happened in the past. The Bible was used to support slavery until slavery became taboo and then lo and behold, passages were used to be against it. Same goes with interracial marriages. I'm sure there are countless other examples. A lot of what "evolved' could have probably been used at the time to be against those positions but weren't because society, as a whole, was against them.

If current trends continue, will this happen in regards to homosexuality? The country/society has made an incredibly sharp shift towards being accepting of gay people and pushing towards their equality. It's a drastic shift to be sure, probably why there is so much friction. It's not as if all of a sudden all the anti-gay people died off, surely sentiment is changing. Utah of all states has gay marriage now! And on the other hand, Uganda is passing a kill all gays law that is backed by religious sentiment.

Now that public sentiment is changing, I have noticed cracks in Christian theology about supporting gay people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani ... able_views Much of that revolves around mistranslating the bible, making the excuse that being homosexual is not a sin but the act itself is (equating it to gossping, lying, etc), that are laws supersede others (Golden Rule), and so forth.

So my basic question to the board's theologians, let's fast forward and gay people are widely accepted (if you don't believe that will happen, just pretend). Do you think that majority of Christianity will evolve to have it be accepted or not? That the Bible will be used to support gay people rather than demonize them?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:45 am 
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The minority that view homosexuality as valid will be proven wrong. I think the pro-gay movement is currently maxed out as you're running up against Christianity now and practicing Christians will never see it as anything but sin because it's specifically called out as an abomination in the old and new testaments. It's clearly sin. Those claiming it's not are having to break off and form new/non-christian churches for it to be acceptable.

I think your model should be adultery. That has much broader support in the culture at large, but is still considered a sin.

Cpt Jagdish wrote:
[serious]

I'm sure this will derail but I hope it doesn't. I'm generally curious what some of you think about this, especially those who have a strong grasp of it (Valencia, you seem to always knock these out of the park).

I ask this question because it's happened in the past. The Bible was used to support slavery until slavery became taboo and then lo and behold, passages were used to be against it. Same goes with interracial marriages. I'm sure there are countless other examples. A lot of what "evolved' could have probably been used at the time to be against those positions but weren't because society, as a whole, was against them.

If current trends continue, will this happen in regards to homosexuality? The country/society has made an incredibly sharp shift towards being accepting of gay people and pushing towards their equality. It's a drastic shift to be sure, probably why there is so much friction. It's not as if all of a sudden all the anti-gay people died off, surely sentiment is changing. Utah of all states has gay marriage now! And on the other hand, Uganda is passing a kill all gays law that is backed by religious sentiment.

Now that public sentiment is changing, I have noticed cracks in Christian theology about supporting gay people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani ... able_views Much of that revolves around mistranslating the bible, making the excuse that being homosexual is not a sin but the act itself is (equating it to gossping, lying, etc), that are laws supersede others (Golden Rule), and so forth.

So my basic question to the board's theologians, let's fast forward and gay people are widely accepted (if you don't believe that will happen, just pretend). Do you think that majority of Christianity will evolve to have it be accepted or not? That the Bible will be used to support gay people rather than demonize them?

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Last edited by awesome guy on Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:47 am 
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Short answer - it's all interpretation (including the slavery and interracial issues you noted). There are all sorts of interpretations of the Bible and they depend on the person or group. For example, within the Mennonite Church I was raised in,t here were a number of strict pacifists, while at the same time many congregants worked at the shipyard that built machines of war. Some people were comfortable with that and others weren't. This is true for many more topics than just homosexuality - that one is just at the forefront of today's news.

Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)

Cpt Jagdish wrote:
[serious]

I'm sure this will derail but I hope it doesn't. I'm generally curious what some of you think about this, especially those who have a strong grasp of it (Valencia, you seem to always knock these out of the park).

I ask this question because it's happened in the past. The Bible was used to support slavery until slavery became taboo and then lo and behold, passages were used to be against it. Same goes with interracial marriages. I'm sure there are countless other examples. A lot of what "evolved' could have probably been used at the time to be against those positions but weren't because society, as a whole, was against them.

If current trends continue, will this happen in regards to homosexuality? The country/society has made an incredibly sharp shift towards being accepting of gay people and pushing towards their equality. It's a drastic shift to be sure, probably why there is so much friction. It's not as if all of a sudden all the anti-gay people died off, surely sentiment is changing. Utah of all states has gay marriage now! And on the other hand, Uganda is passing a kill all gays law that is backed by religious sentiment.

Now that public sentiment is changing, I have noticed cracks in Christian theology about supporting gay people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani ... able_views Much of that revolves around mistranslating the bible, making the excuse that being homosexual is not a sin but the act itself is (equating it to gossping, lying, etc), that are laws supersede others (Golden Rule), and so forth.

So my basic question to the board's theologians, let's fast forward and gay people are widely accepted (if you don't believe that will happen, just pretend). Do you think that majority of Christianity will evolve to have it be accepted or not? That the Bible will be used to support gay people rather than demonize them?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:52 am 
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Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:55 am 
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Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.


Well, I don't subscribe to the Bible but that IS what it says. All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:56 am 
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Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.



point b) Please read what Phil said and list everything he listed.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:02 am 
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awesome guy wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.



point b) Please read what Phil said and list everything he listed.


This is not intended to be a Duck Dynasty thread. I am sure you can Google what he most recently said and has said in the past. If you would like to discuss Phil, there's a subforum dedicated to that right here: viewforum.php?f=9


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:06 am 
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Florida Hokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.


Well, I don't subscribe to the Bible but that IS what it says. All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord.


So I don't think demonize is a terribly unfit word then. Thanks for your response, healthy discussion.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:10 am 
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Cpt Jagdish wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.



point b) Please read what Phil said and list everything he listed.


This is not intended to be a Duck Dynasty thread. I am sure you can Google what he most recently said and has said in the past. If you would like to discuss Phil, there's a subforum dedicated to that right here: viewforum.php?f=9



The bolded above is what started the faux outrage over Phil's comments. Figured you're continuing the selective reading used in that episode. But in a general sense, yeah, homosexuality is viewed in a similar light as those items and other sexual sins as well as drunks, lying, ripping people off, hustling, etc. What they're lumped with should be an indication to the sinner of how God views those behaviors. Sins are evils that keep us separate from God. And so they shouldn't engage in those behaviors if they want to inherit the kingdom of God.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:15 am 
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awesome guy wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.



point b) Please read what Phil said and list everything he listed.


This is not intended to be a Duck Dynasty thread. I am sure you can Google what he most recently said and has said in the past. If you would like to discuss Phil, there's a subforum dedicated to that right here: viewforum.php?f=9



The bolded above is what started the faux outrage over Phil's comments. Figured you're continuing the selective reading used in that episode. But in a general sense, yeah, homosexuality is viewed in a similar light as those items and other sexual sins as well as drunks, lying, ripping people off, hustling, etc. What they're lumped with should be an indication to the sinner of how God views those behaviors. Sins are evils that keep us separate from God. And so they shouldn't engage in those behaviors if they want to inherit the kingdom of God.


Thanks, do you think the Bible/Christianity will "evolve" much like those other items. I am not sure it will or even can.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:18 am 
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Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Thanks, do you think the Bible/Christianity will "evolve" much like those other items. I am not sure it will or even can.


The word of God is true yesterday, now, and forever. It doesn't evolve.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:26 am 
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IANARP, but if the meaning of the Bible can change, it's a worthless story book.

This question reminds me of the poster who said his church was going to have a vote on whether to allow gay marriages after MD legalized gay marriage. I asked him how the MD legislature's vote amended the Bible.....never did get an answer.

BTW, your interpretation of the Bible being used as some mainstream endorsement of slavery is just flat wrong. Also, show me the edict by any church with a history that prohibited interracial marriages. I'm sure there were some backwoods preachers who "interpreted" that from the Bible, but I'm not aware of it being policy for and large denomination.

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Last edited by USN_Hokie on Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:31 am 
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IANARP?

USN_Hokie wrote:
IANARP, but if the meaning of the Bible can change, it's a worthless story book.

This question reminds me of the poster who said his church was going to have a vote on whether to allow gay marriages after MD legalized gay marriage. I asked him how the MD legislature's vote amended the Bible.....never did get an answer.

BTW, your interpretation of the Bible being used as some mainstream endorsement of slavery is just flat wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:31 am 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
IANARP, but if the meaning of the Bible can change, it's a worthless story book.

This question reminds me of the poster who said his church was going to have a vote on whether to allow gay marriages after MD legalized gay marriage. I asked him how the MD legislature's vote amended the Bible.....never did get an answer.


exactly. I think a lot of the pro-butt ache aching comes from them intertwining the law with morals. Just as they claim the right legalizes their morality, they do the same. So when Captain and Once want gay marriage legal they also think it has to be the societal norm.

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Last edited by awesome guy on Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:32 am 
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Never mind, it clicked in my head after I hit submit.
Once wrote:
IANARP?

USN_Hokie wrote:
IANARP, but if the meaning of the Bible can change, it's a worthless story book.

This question reminds me of the poster who said his church was going to have a vote on whether to allow gay marriages after MD legalized gay marriage. I asked him how the MD legislature's vote amended the Bible.....never did get an answer.

BTW, your interpretation of the Bible being used as some mainstream endorsement of slavery is just flat wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:36 am 
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Florida Hokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.


Well, I don't subscribe to the Bible but that IS what it says. All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord.


That sounds like hate speech.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:37 am 
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I think Christianity could evolve to tolerate it. I think asking them to accept it is a bit much.

Most Biblical references to homosexuality being a sin are in the Old Testament but Christians have a New Covenant with God through Christ wherein ALL who believe in Christ and trust Him for guidance will have everlasting life in Heaven. Jesus basically told sinners to go forth and sin no more and they were all good. Catholics have a ritual called Last Rites, wherein a priest will bless a person (or a group of people) just before they are expected to die so that they can be cleansed of all their sin and therefore get into Heaven. Basically the New Covenant says as long as you are forgiven through Christ, you will be saved. Christians are pretty much charged with evangelism to encourage everyone they can to accept Christ, but that's about where it ends. Once the Church convinces their parishes to spread the word yet do follow Christ's teachings to love one another and to treat others as you would be treated, then persecution of sinners should stop. Once you no longer persecute those with whom you disagree, you have learned to tolerate them. It doesn't mean you accept them, but you can tolerate them, and I think that is probably the best that can be expected.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:38 am 
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Cpt Jagdish wrote:
So my basic question to the board's theologians, let's fast forward and gay people are widely accepted (if you don't believe that will happen, just pretend). Do you think that majority of Christianity will evolve to have it be accepted or not? That the Bible will be used to support gay people rather than demonize them?

I'm far from being a theologian, so I apologize if my opinion is unwanted. I think your reference to slavery is interesting, in that the Bible, while recognizing its existence, doesn't endorse its practice. It may be that the majority of Christianity will eventually recognize that society has come to accept the homosexual lifestyle (if that does happen) but Christians who believe that all scripture is God-breathed will never endorse it, and it seems more and more as if that is what is being demanded. The Bible is already used to support gay people, as well is should, but I don't see any way it can legitimately be used to endorse the practice. That doesn't mean that some people won't continue, as you've noted, to reference isolated passages out of context for their own purposes.

By the way, I'm glad you're here. You're showing us how to conduct a civil discussion, and I respect that.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:41 am 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:
Florida Hokie wrote:
Also, many people don't view their Biblical treatment of homosexuality as "demonizing" homosexuals. There is a reason that they say the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. I just note this because I think these discussions get derailed with the use of such language ("demonization, homophobe, etc.)



Apologize, I struggled with word choice because:
a) I am bias, I will admit that
b) I am not sure what word to use in it's place, I am all open to something that is more acceptable. Being told that you are in the same lot as bestiality and pedophiles comes off as demonizing.


Well, I don't subscribe to the Bible but that IS what it says. All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord.


That sounds like hate speech.


Yeah - I stopped reading the Phil Robertson articles because I kept seeing "hate-filled" or something similar.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:44 am 
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With other events in news I'm just not sure that Christianity is the ultimate boogeyman.

Islam is intolerant of homosexuality and one can't ignore the events in India the last few weeks...although I think its more of a gubment thing than an actual Hindi thing.

I think, despite what some believe, that the acceptance of homosexuality in a Forever War sense is still a long time coming.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:47 am 
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Hokie CPA wrote:
Once the Church convinces their parishes to spread the word yet do follow Christ's teachings to love one another and to treat others as you would be treated, then persecution of sinners should stop. Once you no longer persecute those with whom you disagree, you have learned to tolerate them. It doesn't mean you accept them, but you can tolerate them, and I think that is probably the best that can be expected.


Huh? Does this mean that if you caught someone with kiddie porn, you wouldn't turn them in? Serious question.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:50 am 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
Hokie CPA wrote:
Once the Church convinces their parishes to spread the word yet do follow Christ's teachings to love one another and to treat others as you would be treated, then persecution of sinners should stop. Once you no longer persecute those with whom you disagree, you have learned to tolerate them. It doesn't mean you accept them, but you can tolerate them, and I think that is probably the best that can be expected.


Huh? Does this mean that if you caught someone with kiddie porn, you wouldn't turn them in? Serious question.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:52 am 
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Hokie CPA wrote:
I think Christianity could evolve to tolerate it. I think asking them to accept it is a bit much.

Most Biblical references to homosexuality being a sin are in the Old Testament but Christians have a New Covenant with God through Christ wherein ALL who believe in Christ and trust Him for guidance will have everlasting life in Heaven. Jesus basically told sinners to go forth and sin no more and they were all good. Catholics have a ritual called Last Rites, wherein a priest will bless a person (or a group of people) just before they are expected to die so that they can be cleansed of all their sin and therefore get into Heaven. Basically the New Covenant says as long as you are forgiven through Christ, you will be saved. Christians are pretty much charged with evangelism to encourage everyone they can to accept Christ, but that's about where it ends. Once the Church convinces their parishes to spread the word yet do follow Christ's teachings to love one another and to treat others as you would be treated, then persecution of sinners should stop. Once you no longer persecute those with whom you disagree, you have learned to tolerate them. It doesn't mean you accept them, but you can tolerate them, and I think that is probably the best that can be expected.


What you're describing is where Christianity is. Nowhere are we to stone or kill homosexuals. We're to preach to them and bring them into salvation just as we are to all sinners. Right now the debate is such that the pro-gay people use such ridiculous language that it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation on the subject. Calling it a sin == fear and hate to them.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:57 am 
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USN_Hokie wrote:
IANARP, but if the meaning of the Bible can change, it's a worthless story book.

This question reminds me of the poster who said his church was going to have a vote on whether to allow gay marriages after MD legalized gay marriage. I asked him how the MD legislature's vote amended the Bible.....never did get an answer.

BTW, your interpretation of the Bible being used as some mainstream endorsement of slavery is just flat wrong. Also, show me the edict by any church with a history that prohibited interracial marriages. I'm sure there were some backwoods preachers who "interpreted" that from the Bible, but I'm not aware of it being policy for and large denomination.


I am not a practicing Christian so I can't really comment on your "story book" comment or the church having a vote.

It's not really my interpretation, it's just what I have read and have come to believe.

On slavery, it seems there were was some conflict but there was definitely support. It was heavy at times depending on how society viewed it, the references within are quite good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... ty#Slavery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery

And as for interracial relationships, I dont believe it was just backwoods preachers that were condemning them. Bob Jones University didn't lift the ban on interracial dating until not so long ago and Jerry Falwell was adamant against it. I think that speaks more of the times then anything Christianity had to say but Christianity was used as a crutch and that's my point.

Looking back at it, it's abhorrent to think that the Bible was used in such a manner or that Christianity was used to back those beliefs, but they were and it was common. BUT it would be ridiculous to think that that wasn't society's common belief. Were those people really racist or bad, or were they a product of their times? Same with the Bible/Christianity, does it evolve with the times and continue or does it just splinter and some sects become more popular while others wane?

I'm not saying that it should (if you ask my opinion, I can give it to you) but whether or not it will if society at large is widely accepting of gay people?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:15 am
Posts: 573
Alma Mater: Virginia Tech
Party: None of the above
Major Kong wrote:
With other events in news I'm just not sure that Christianity is the ultimate boogeyman.

Islam is intolerant of homosexuality and one can't ignore the events in India the last few weeks...although I think its more of a gubment thing than an actual Hindi thing.

I think, despite what some believe, that the acceptance of homosexuality in a Forever War sense is still a long time coming.


Agree 100%

I think for the most part, a lot of how Islam (or other religions) treat their fellow man is abhorrent. Certain parts of Islamic society treats women as second class citizens and use their religion to justify it, but Americans are not so quick to acknowledge that "that's their opinion and what they believe because of their religion.

Uganda is about to pass a kill gays law and I have heard very little about it in mainstream news. You would think with all the Christian organizations that have pumped money into Uganda that the mainstream media would be all over it to rail against Christianity (as some would believe) but the money is not there I guess to cover it.


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