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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:13 am 
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with a projected $2,000,000,000 loss for last year, how the heck is this sustainable?

Better yet the company is approaching the cutoff for the tax credit (sold enough vehicles that the credit is eliminated) which will tank sales

The dude is running one hell of a ponzi scheme.. go Musk


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:50 pm 
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ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


How many billions of dollars of government money has Musk taken? $5B?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Mcl3 Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


How many billions of dollars of government money has Musk taken? $5B?

For Tesla? And if so, what do you mean by "taken"?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:50 pm 
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ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.

At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:35 pm 
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133743Hokie wrote:
Mcl3 Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


How many billions of dollars of government money has Musk taken? $5B?

For Tesla? And if so, what do you mean by "taken"?



His companies have taken ~$5 billion in federal and state government subsidies.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:33 am 
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HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
Mcl3 Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


How many billions of dollars of government money has Musk taken? $5B?

For Tesla? And if so, what do you mean by "taken"?



His companies have taken ~$5 billion in federal and state government subsidies.

What subsidies?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:14 am 
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133743Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.

At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


And he's in line to buy that one. My partially loaded F-150 work truck MSRP's for $43,000. You can't get modest vehicles for less than $35,000 nowadays. And if he took a government handout for what it was offering, why is that his fault? It's his job to see if he can keep the business afloat from now on. Do Exxon and other large, extremely profitable corporations willingly take subsidies or tax breaks? Absolutely. Why does that make them evil?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:37 am 
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133743Hokie wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
Mcl3 Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


How many billions of dollars of government money has Musk taken? $5B?

For Tesla? And if so, what do you mean by "taken"?



His companies have taken ~$5 billion in federal and state government subsidies.

What subsidies?


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-h ... story.html


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:14 am 
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ElbertoHokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.

At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


And he's in line to buy that one. My partially loaded F-150 work truck MSRP's for $43,000. You can't get modest vehicles for less than $35,000 nowadays. And if he took a government handout for what it was offering, why is that his fault? It's his job to see if he can keep the business afloat from now on. Do Exxon and other large, extremely profitable corporations willingly take subsidies or tax breaks? Absolutely. Why does that make them evil?



the key line in the article linked in this thread is " without the gov. subsidies and grants and such none of his companies would exist" That is not the case for other corporations that get a tax package for siting a facility in a certain place for instance. Without all the taxpayer dollars Tesla, space x and Solar city would not exist.... let that sink in.

The reason I brought up the loss is because several analysts are now questioning wether his endeavors will ever show a profit.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:43 am 
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cwtcr hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.

At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


And he's in line to buy that one. My partially loaded F-150 work truck MSRP's for $43,000. You can't get modest vehicles for less than $35,000 nowadays. And if he took a government handout for what it was offering, why is that his fault? It's his job to see if he can keep the business afloat from now on. Do Exxon and other large, extremely profitable corporations willingly take subsidies or tax breaks? Absolutely. Why does that make them evil?



the key line in the article linked in this thread is " without the gov. subsidies and grants and such none of his companies would exist" That is not the case for other corporations that get a tax package for siting a facility in a certain place for instance. Without all the taxpayer dollars Tesla, space x and Solar city would not exist.... let that sink in.

The reason I brought up the loss is because several analysts are now questioning wether his endeavors will ever show a profit.


Again though, why are those subsidies his fault? He's using the system just like every american does on their taxes. You clearly show disdain for him and his companies yet they're employing thousands of people in high paying jobs. Sure the USA was an early philanthropic investor but how much revenue for the Federal Gov't will employing those thousands of people generate? I see it very much like incentivizing Amazon to place their headquarters in location X. Since NASA's mission has been crushed due to reduced funding and the swapping back and forth of congressional and executive leadership, SpaceX stepped in and is filling the void. I've probably come across 10 engineers, some from VCU and some from VT that their DREAM company to work for is SpaceX.

And as far as whether he ever makes a profit or not, that's caveat emptor for those investors. I worked for a gold mine startup that was making $0 and made $0 for 5 to 6 years. We had $100 million dollars in the bank from investors and my paycheck and everyone else was paid out of that with the promise that eventually we'd bring in revenue. The possibility of ever getting a permit to do that is always up in the air. People make risky bets all the time but everyone is looking for the big payoff.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:52 am 
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ElbertoHokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.

At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


And he's in line to buy that one. My partially loaded F-150 work truck MSRP's for $43,000. You can't get modest vehicles for less than $35,000 nowadays. And if he took a government handout for what it was offering, why is that his fault? It's his job to see if he can keep the business afloat from now on. Do Exxon and other large, extremely profitable corporations willingly take subsidies or tax breaks? Absolutely. Why does that make them evil?



the key line in the article linked in this thread is " without the gov. subsidies and grants and such none of his companies would exist" That is not the case for other corporations that get a tax package for siting a facility in a certain place for instance. Without all the taxpayer dollars Tesla, space x and Solar city would not exist.... let that sink in.

The reason I brought up the loss is because several analysts are now questioning wether his endeavors will ever show a profit.


Again though, why are those subsidies his fault? He's using the system just like every american does on their taxes. You clearly show disdain for him and his companies yet they're employing thousands of people in high paying jobs. Sure the USA was an early philanthropic investor but how much revenue for the Federal Gov't will employing those thousands of people generate? I see it very much like incentivizing Amazon to place their headquarters in location X. Since NASA's mission has been crushed due to reduced funding and the swapping back and forth of congressional and executive leadership, SpaceX stepped in and is filling the void. I've probably come across 10 engineers, some from VCU and some from VT that their DREAM company to work for is SpaceX.

And as far as whether he ever makes a profit or not, that's caveat emptor for those investors. I worked for a gold mine startup that was making $0 and made $0 for 5 to 6 years. We had $100 million dollars in the bank from investors and my paycheck and everyone else was paid out of that with the promise that eventually we'd bring in revenue. The possibility of ever getting a permit to do that is always up in the air. People make risky bets all the time but everyone is looking for the big payoff.


I don't have disdain for his ventures, I am a financial guy, the question is sustainability and yes I am well aware of how risk works. I assist running companies for others I and I operate my own businesses, very well versed in risk.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:30 am 
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cwtcr hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


And he's in line to buy that one. My partially loaded F-150 work truck MSRP's for $43,000. You can't get modest vehicles for less than $35,000 nowadays. And if he took a government handout for what it was offering, why is that his fault? It's his job to see if he can keep the business afloat from now on. Do Exxon and other large, extremely profitable corporations willingly take subsidies or tax breaks? Absolutely. Why does that make them evil?



the key line in the article linked in this thread is " without the gov. subsidies and grants and such none of his companies would exist" That is not the case for other corporations that get a tax package for siting a facility in a certain place for instance. Without all the taxpayer dollars Tesla, space x and Solar city would not exist.... let that sink in.

The reason I brought up the loss is because several analysts are now questioning wether his endeavors will ever show a profit.


Again though, why are those subsidies his fault? He's using the system just like every american does on their taxes. You clearly show disdain for him and his companies yet they're employing thousands of people in high paying jobs. Sure the USA was an early philanthropic investor but how much revenue for the Federal Gov't will employing those thousands of people generate? I see it very much like incentivizing Amazon to place their headquarters in location X. Since NASA's mission has been crushed due to reduced funding and the swapping back and forth of congressional and executive leadership, SpaceX stepped in and is filling the void. I've probably come across 10 engineers, some from VCU and some from VT that their DREAM company to work for is SpaceX.

And as far as whether he ever makes a profit or not, that's caveat emptor for those investors. I worked for a gold mine startup that was making $0 and made $0 for 5 to 6 years. We had $100 million dollars in the bank from investors and my paycheck and everyone else was paid out of that with the promise that eventually we'd bring in revenue. The possibility of ever getting a permit to do that is always up in the air. People make risky bets all the time but everyone is looking for the big payoff.


I don't have disdain for his ventures, I am a financial guy, the question is sustainability and yes I am well aware of how risk works. I assist running companies for others I and I operate my own businesses, very well versed in risk.


Sorry I drove the Tesla X last year. I want one!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:21 pm 
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.[/quote]

Sorry I drove the Tesla X last year. I want one![/quote]

I agree TMo2. They are nice looking cars. I would never own one in the city, but when do the SUVs hit the market?

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"Leadership: Whatever happens, you're responsible. If it doesn't happen, you're responsible." - DT(2013)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Mcl3 Hokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
HokieJoe wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
Mcl3 Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.


How many billions of dollars of government money has Musk taken? $5B?

For Tesla? And if so, what do you mean by "taken"?



His companies have taken ~$5 billion in federal and state government subsidies.

What subsidies?


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-h ... story.html

Yeah, I read that article 3 years ago. Almost all of the subsidies you're lamenting were offered up by jurisdictions to get factories, etc. All states do this for a wide range of businesses. When you threw out the $5B figure I thought you had something beyond the normal subsidies offered everywhere for major employers. The only things "special" to Tesla are also in place for other electric vehicle makers, so IMO this is all much ado about nothing.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:42 pm 
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cwtcr hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.

At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


And he's in line to buy that one. My partially loaded F-150 work truck MSRP's for $43,000. You can't get modest vehicles for less than $35,000 nowadays. And if he took a government handout for what it was offering, why is that his fault? It's his job to see if he can keep the business afloat from now on. Do Exxon and other large, extremely profitable corporations willingly take subsidies or tax breaks? Absolutely. Why does that make them evil?



the key line in the article linked in this thread is " without the gov. subsidies and grants and such none of his companies would exist" That is not the case for other corporations that get a tax package for siting a facility in a certain place for instance. Without all the taxpayer dollars Tesla, space x and Solar city would not exist.... let that sink in.

The reason I brought up the loss is because several analysts are now questioning wether his endeavors will ever show a profit.

I know for a fact that what you have just stated is absolutely 100% false wrt SpaceX. Let that sink in before you spout off about things you don't know about.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:13 pm 
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The $2B loss isn't that big of a deal. It's a lot of money, but there are VC funds out there with a lot of ammo. For example, the latest SoftBank fund is $100B of investment capital. Tesla has revenue of about $11B and a market cap of $50B, so it's around 4.5X sales. Rich, yes. Balance sheet shows over $3B in cash, so they can probably do another offering and pull in a few billion later this year or next.

I don't have a position in it BTW. I just don't think this situation is that dire, as their brand is about as good as it could be right now. A major safety issue, recall, or something else bad would change all of that of course.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:05 pm 
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133743Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
ElbertoHokie wrote:
Why do you hate that so much? It's like any other tech start up, Amazon didn't make a profit for a decade. But the potential is there and as long as investors willingly line up for a slice of the pie, going concern for Tesla won't be an issue. Let the market decide what happens to it like everything else.

My brother signed up to buy one of the $35,000. he's anticipating no tax cut, he just loves the brand and wants to own one. Tesla ultimately won't be a car company anyway, it will really be a battery company.

At this point in time you can't get the $35k stripped down model, only the fully loaded one at about $55k+


And he's in line to buy that one. My partially loaded F-150 work truck MSRP's for $43,000. You can't get modest vehicles for less than $35,000 nowadays. And if he took a government handout for what it was offering, why is that his fault? It's his job to see if he can keep the business afloat from now on. Do Exxon and other large, extremely profitable corporations willingly take subsidies or tax breaks? Absolutely. Why does that make them evil?



the key line in the article linked in this thread is " without the gov. subsidies and grants and such none of his companies would exist" That is not the case for other corporations that get a tax package for siting a facility in a certain place for instance. Without all the taxpayer dollars Tesla, space x and Solar city would not exist.... let that sink in.

The reason I brought up the loss is because several analysts are now questioning wether his endeavors will ever show a profit.

I know for a fact that what you have just stated is absolutely 100% false wrt SpaceX. Let that sink in before you spout off about things you don't know about.


The quote was from an article in that was posted in this thread, I am not sure what you are saying is false, I even put quotation marks around it
and spouting off is what we do, or else there would be nobody here, have a nice day


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Bay_area_Hokie wrote:
The $2B loss isn't that big of a deal. It's a lot of money, but there are VC funds out there with a lot of ammo. For example, the latest SoftBank fund is $100B of investment capital. Tesla has revenue of about $11B and a market cap of $50B, so it's around 4.5X sales. Rich, yes. Balance sheet shows over $3B in cash, so they can probably do another offering and pull in a few billion later this year or next.

I don't have a position in it BTW. I just don't think this situation is that dire, as their brand is about as good as it could be right now. A major safety issue, recall, or something else bad would change all of that of course.



Is that considering they may not be able to actually turn a profit in any of the companies? They are fast approaching the tax credit being eliminated for them for the buyers of their vehicles, to me at least that means they lose sales after the buyer credit is phased out


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:20 pm 
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cwtcr hokie wrote:
Bay_area_Hokie wrote:
The $2B loss isn't that big of a deal. It's a lot of money, but there are VC funds out there with a lot of ammo. For example, the latest SoftBank fund is $100B of investment capital. Tesla has revenue of about $11B and a market cap of $50B, so it's around 4.5X sales. Rich, yes. Balance sheet shows over $3B in cash, so they can probably do another offering and pull in a few billion later this year or next.

I don't have a position in it BTW. I just don't think this situation is that dire, as their brand is about as good as it could be right now. A major safety issue, recall, or something else bad would change all of that of course.



Is that considering they may not be able to actually turn a profit in any of the companies? They are fast approaching the tax credit being eliminated for them for the buyers of their vehicles, to me at least that means they lose sales after the buyer credit is phased out


Amp up the retirement account by shorting the pig, cwtcr! It's trading over 300 a share right now. Buy it back at 100.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:43 pm 
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cwtcr hokie wrote:
Bay_area_Hokie wrote:
The $2B loss isn't that big of a deal. It's a lot of money, but there are VC funds out there with a lot of ammo. For example, the latest SoftBank fund is $100B of investment capital. Tesla has revenue of about $11B and a market cap of $50B, so it's around 4.5X sales. Rich, yes. Balance sheet shows over $3B in cash, so they can probably do another offering and pull in a few billion later this year or next.

I don't have a position in it BTW. I just don't think this situation is that dire, as their brand is about as good as it could be right now. A major safety issue, recall, or something else bad would change all of that of course.



Is that considering they may not be able to actually turn a profit in any of the companies? They are fast approaching the tax credit being eliminated for them for the buyers of their vehicles, to me at least that means they lose sales after the buyer credit is phased out
Again, don't lump SpaceX in there. They are profitable.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:36 pm 
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133743Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Bay_area_Hokie wrote:
The $2B loss isn't that big of a deal. It's a lot of money, but there are VC funds out there with a lot of ammo. For example, the latest SoftBank fund is $100B of investment capital. Tesla has revenue of about $11B and a market cap of $50B, so it's around 4.5X sales. Rich, yes. Balance sheet shows over $3B in cash, so they can probably do another offering and pull in a few billion later this year or next.

I don't have a position in it BTW. I just don't think this situation is that dire, as their brand is about as good as it could be right now. A major safety issue, recall, or something else bad would change all of that of course.



Is that considering they may not be able to actually turn a profit in any of the companies? They are fast approaching the tax credit being eliminated for them for the buyers of their vehicles, to me at least that means they lose sales after the buyer credit is phased out
Again, don't lump SpaceX in there. They are profitable.


Space X is a private company and does not report financials, how would you know if they are profitable and what their financials look like?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:09 pm 
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cwtcr hokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Bay_area_Hokie wrote:
The $2B loss isn't that big of a deal. It's a lot of money, but there are VC funds out there with a lot of ammo. For example, the latest SoftBank fund is $100B of investment capital. Tesla has revenue of about $11B and a market cap of $50B, so it's around 4.5X sales. Rich, yes. Balance sheet shows over $3B in cash, so they can probably do another offering and pull in a few billion later this year or next.

I don't have a position in it BTW. I just don't think this situation is that dire, as their brand is about as good as it could be right now. A major safety issue, recall, or something else bad would change all of that of course.



Is that considering they may not be able to actually turn a profit in any of the companies? They are fast approaching the tax credit being eliminated for them for the buyers of their vehicles, to me at least that means they lose sales after the buyer credit is phased out
Again, don't lump SpaceX in there. They are profitable.


Space X is a private company and does not report financials, how would you know if they are profitable and what their financials look like?

My son has worked there for years and has significant stock holdings. They have an external valuation done quarterly and publish annual financials, which I look at every year.


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