Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Forum rules
Be Civil. Go Hokies.
Be Civil. Go Hokies.
- HokieHam
- Posts: 26620
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:50 pm
- Location: Kicking over crayons in a safe space for libruls....
Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
"if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever."
ip believes you can dial in a 78 year old man who suffers from deminishing mental function
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
-
- Posts: 2052
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:12 pm
- Alma Mater: VT
- Party: libertarian
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
Looks like the only thing 1984 got wrong was the date.
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.Vienna_Hokie wrote:Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
-
- Posts: 912
- Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:42 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Again- not your decision or the government's if the parents are willing to try and pay for it.cwtcr hokie wrote:I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.Vienna_Hokie wrote:Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
I am very glad its not my decision, just debating the issues in that decision over the pond. In my own life my life decisions have only involved dogs and horses (the cats made the decision for themselves it seems) and I hope I never have to make any decision on myself, my wife or my relatives.WestEndHokie39 wrote:Again- not your decision or the government's if the parents are willing to try and pay for it.cwtcr hokie wrote:I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.Vienna_Hokie wrote:Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
-
- Posts: 2052
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:12 pm
- Alma Mater: VT
- Party: libertarian
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
If someone is willing to do it and someone is willing to pay for it, why should anyone else get a say in it? Of course history shows there are no slippery slopes when people stick their noses into things like this but couldn't the same justification be used to refuse to allow someone to get treatment for cancer..I mean that's an awful lot of money to spend with a questionable outcome.cwtcr hokie wrote:I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.Vienna_Hokie wrote:Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
To the original point, why is the government sticking its nose in and telling people what they can and can't do with their own resources that are completely unrelated to that government? Has the feel of bureaucrats flexing their power because they can.
Looks like the only thing 1984 got wrong was the date.
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Its the way the UK works, trade off to having free health care would be my guess. In your comparison tho use apples to apples, per the article nothing will save the life of the boy, they may extend it some as a vegetable but he it appears is not going to have a miracle and emerge 100% healthy. Cancer can be cured, it is done every day. I save my relatives the trouble and have a living will that says if I am terminal and in a veg state let me go!Vienna_Hokie wrote:If someone is willing to do it and someone is willing to pay for it, why should anyone else get a say in it? Of course history shows there are no slippery slopes when people stick their noses into things like this but couldn't the same justification be used to refuse to allow someone to get treatment for cancer..I mean that's an awful lot of money to spend with a questionable outcome.cwtcr hokie wrote:I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.Vienna_Hokie wrote:Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
To the original point, why is the government sticking its nose in and telling people what they can and can't do with their own resources that are completely unrelated to that government? Has the feel of bureaucrats flexing their power because they can.
- HokieHam
- Posts: 26620
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:50 pm
- Location: Kicking over crayons in a safe space for libruls....
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
"if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever."
ip believes you can dial in a 78 year old man who suffers from deminishing mental function
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
Yup.
"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
-
- Posts: 11220
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:29 am
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
That isn't your call, or societies in general. Solely for his parents to decide in consultation with his doctor.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
As i said before, I did not make the call and really really really glad I was not involved in the "call". It was a debate about the issues in health care and how the UK is different than the USA133743Hokie wrote:That isn't your call, or societies in general. Solely for his parents to decide in consultation with his doctor.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
The outcome? It appears no matter what they do the kid will not live a long life, so no the outcome is the same. This is not about curing the kid, his brain is already damaged badly, humans need a brain. Yes, I am taking the emotion out of it. Current medicine cannot cure the kid.USN_Hokie wrote:Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."cwtcr hokie wrote:The outcome? It appears no matter what they do the kid will not live a long life, so no the outcome is the same. This is not about curing the kid, his brain is already damaged badly, humans need a brain. Yes, I am taking the emotion out of it. Current medicine cannot cure the kid.USN_Hokie wrote:Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
What if the UK government decides that farmers who can't chase horses without their missing knee brace from the gym get put down next?
We're talking about humans, not livestock. This this is an offense against free will - and there's no way this judge would have ruled the same if this was a royal, which was my point.
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?WestEndHokie39 wrote:Again- not your decision or the government's if the parents are willing to try and pay for it.cwtcr hokie wrote:I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.Vienna_Hokie wrote:Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
- Major Kong
- Posts: 15758
- Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:35 pm
- Alma Mater: Ferrum VT ASU
- Party: Independent
- Location: Somewhere between Marion and Seven Mile Ford
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
The parents appealed the decision...the hearing has been done and a decision is pending.
I only post using 100% recycled electrons.
- ip_law-hokie
- Posts: 19133
- Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:20 pm
- Alma Mater: Manchester
- Location: New York, NY
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Slippery slope!USN_Hokie wrote:Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
With their Cap’n and Chief Intelligence Officer having deserted them, River, Ham and Joe valiantly continue their whataboutismistic last stand of the DJT apology tour.
-
- Posts: 11220
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:29 am
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Yep. UK is fully nationalized so they have death panels.cwtcr hokie wrote:As i said before, I did not make the call and really really really glad I was not involved in the "call". It was a debate about the issues in health care and how the UK is different than the USA133743Hokie wrote:That isn't your call, or societies in general. Solely for his parents to decide in consultation with his doctor.cwtcr hokie wrote:I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html
Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
huh? what? I can have them cut off my leg at the knee and function just fine, if my brain is not functioning then I cannot do anything, the article says the kid is in a partial vegetative state and current medicine cannot cure his brain issue, so is it right to keep his body alive even tho there is zero shot at a cure? If there was a cure or they could erase the damage already done then this is a whole different conversation.. do you agree?USN_Hokie wrote:Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
-
- Posts: 13399
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
your point about the royal kid.... well no duh. but use apples to apples comparisons please, using stuff that makes no sense does not add to the debate. I agree the parents should have the ability to do whatever with their kid on their own dime, my question is it right for them to keep the body alive, it seems a bit selfish to me, there is no cure per the article. And yes every case has all its own variables so no, one answer does not fit all.USN_Hokie wrote:"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."cwtcr hokie wrote:The outcome? It appears no matter what they do the kid will not live a long life, so no the outcome is the same. This is not about curing the kid, his brain is already damaged badly, humans need a brain. Yes, I am taking the emotion out of it. Current medicine cannot cure the kid.USN_Hokie wrote:Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
What if the UK government decides that farmers who can't chase horses without their missing knee brace from the gym get put down next?
We're talking about humans, not livestock. This this is an offense against free will - and there's no way this judge would have ruled the same if this was a royal, which was my point.
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
There's no slipping required. They're already denying surgeries for people in the UK based on their BMI (ETA: and smoking I believe).ip_law-hokie wrote:Slippery slope!USN_Hokie wrote:Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by USN_Hokie on Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- ip_law-hokie
- Posts: 19133
- Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:20 pm
- Alma Mater: Manchester
- Location: New York, NY
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
Good if true.USN_Hokie wrote:There's no slipping required. They're already denying surgeries for people in the UK based on their BMI.ip_law-hokie wrote:Slippery slope!USN_Hokie wrote:Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
With their Cap’n and Chief Intelligence Officer having deserted them, River, Ham and Joe valiantly continue their whataboutismistic last stand of the DJT apology tour.
Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....
We already know you're a statist.ip_law-hokie wrote:Good if true.USN_Hokie wrote:There's no slipping required. They're already denying surgeries for people in the UK based on their BMI.ip_law-hokie wrote:Slippery slope!USN_Hokie wrote:Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk