In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

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UpstateSCHokie
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In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Holder's New School Discipline Guidelines: Stop Targeting Minorities
By KIMBERLY HEFLING
AP Education Writer

The Obama administration is issuing new recommendations on classroom discipline that seek to end the apparent disparities in how students of different races are punished for violating school rules.

Civil rights advocates have long said that a "school-to-prison" pipeline stems from overly zealous school discipline policies targeting black and Hispanic students that bring them out of school and into the court system.

Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record.

"Ordinary troublemaking can sometimes provoke responses that are overly severe, including out of school suspensions, expulsions and even referral to law enforcement and then you end up with kids that end up in police precincts instead of the principal's office," Holder said.

In American schools, black students without disabilities were more than three times as likely as whites to be expelled or suspended, according to government civil rights data collection from 2011-2012. Although black students made up 15 percent of students in the data collection, they made up more than a third of students suspended once, 44 percent of those suspended more than once and more than a third of students expelled.

More than half of students involved in school-related arrests or referred to law enforcement were Hispanic or black, according to the data.

The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions.

Among the other recommendations:

_Ensure that school personnel understand that they are responsible for administering routine student discipline instead of security or police officers.

_Draw clear distinctions about the responsibilities of school security personnel.

_Provide opportunities for school security officers to develop relationships with students and parents.

The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination.

The recommendations are nonbinding, but, in essence, the federal government is telling the school districts around the country that they should adhere to the principles of fairness and equity in student discipline or face strong action if they don't.

Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior.

Education Secretary Arne Duncan acknowledged the challenge is finding the balancing act to keep school safe and orderly, but when it comes to routine discipline the "first instinct should not be to call 911 when there's a problem."

Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.

"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

Holder and Duncan were interviewed on Tuesday on the Rev. Al Sharpton's radio show as part of a national effort to draw attention to the issue.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... discipline
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oaktonhokie
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by oaktonhokie »

Great post, ups. :)

UpstateSCHokie wrote:Holder's New School Discipline Guidelines: Stop Targeting Minorities
By KIMBERLY HEFLING
AP Education Writer

The Obama administration is issuing new recommendations on classroom discipline that seek to end the apparent disparities in how students of different races are punished for violating school rules.

Civil rights advocates have long said that a "school-to-prison" pipeline stems from overly zealous school discipline policies targeting black and Hispanic students that bring them out of school and into the court system.

Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record.

"Ordinary troublemaking can sometimes provoke responses that are overly severe, including out of school suspensions, expulsions and even referral to law enforcement and then you end up with kids that end up in police precincts instead of the principal's office," Holder said.

In American schools, black students without disabilities were more than three times as likely as whites to be expelled or suspended, according to government civil rights data collection from 2011-2012. Although black students made up 15 percent of students in the data collection, they made up more than a third of students suspended once, 44 percent of those suspended more than once and more than a third of students expelled.

More than half of students involved in school-related arrests or referred to law enforcement were Hispanic or black, according to the data.

The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions.

Among the other recommendations:

_Ensure that school personnel understand that they are responsible for administering routine student discipline instead of security or police officers.

_Draw clear distinctions about the responsibilities of school security personnel.

_Provide opportunities for school security officers to develop relationships with students and parents.

The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination.

The recommendations are nonbinding, but, in essence, the federal government is telling the school districts around the country that they should adhere to the principles of fairness and equity in student discipline or face strong action if they don't.

Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior.

Education Secretary Arne Duncan acknowledged the challenge is finding the balancing act to keep school safe and orderly, but when it comes to routine discipline the "first instinct should not be to call 911 when there's a problem."

Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.

"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

Holder and Duncan were interviewed on Tuesday on the Rev. Al Sharpton's radio show as part of a national effort to draw attention to the issue.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... discipline
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by Cpt Jagdish »

What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
133743Hokie
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by 133743Hokie »

Agree with the need for schools to distinguish between normal disciplinary issues and those that are true threats or criminal in nature. More and more a police presence is appearing in various areas of everyday life. We need school teachers and administrators to administer the day to day discipline that is necessary to maintain general order in the classroom. Unfortunately the teachers were neutered decades ago by parents and the courts challenging their right to mete out discipline. The schools have since instituted rigid one-size-fits-all policies (which we all know is a recipe for disaster) and brought in law enforcement. Things have just gotten worse as the inmates are now running the asylum. I don't blame teachers for backing away -- I wouldn't want to be dragged thru the courts by a parent that thinks Johnny is perfect.
UpstateSCHokie wrote:Holder's New School Discipline Guidelines: Stop Targeting Minorities
By KIMBERLY HEFLING
AP Education Writer

The Obama administration is issuing new recommendations on classroom discipline that seek to end the apparent disparities in how students of different races are punished for violating school rules.

Civil rights advocates have long said that a "school-to-prison" pipeline stems from overly zealous school discipline policies targeting black and Hispanic students that bring them out of school and into the court system.

Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record.

"Ordinary troublemaking can sometimes provoke responses that are overly severe, including out of school suspensions, expulsions and even referral to law enforcement and then you end up with kids that end up in police precincts instead of the principal's office," Holder said.

In American schools, black students without disabilities were more than three times as likely as whites to be expelled or suspended, according to government civil rights data collection from 2011-2012. Although black students made up 15 percent of students in the data collection, they made up more than a third of students suspended once, 44 percent of those suspended more than once and more than a third of students expelled.

More than half of students involved in school-related arrests or referred to law enforcement were Hispanic or black, according to the data.

The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions.

Among the other recommendations:

_Ensure that school personnel understand that they are responsible for administering routine student discipline instead of security or police officers.

_Draw clear distinctions about the responsibilities of school security personnel.

_Provide opportunities for school security officers to develop relationships with students and parents.

The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination.

The recommendations are nonbinding, but, in essence, the federal government is telling the school districts around the country that they should adhere to the principles of fairness and equity in student discipline or face strong action if they don't.

Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior.

Education Secretary Arne Duncan acknowledged the challenge is finding the balancing act to keep school safe and orderly, but when it comes to routine discipline the "first instinct should not be to call 911 when there's a problem."

Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.

"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

Holder and Duncan were interviewed on Tuesday on the Rev. Al Sharpton's radio show as part of a national effort to draw attention to the issue.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... discipline
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by awesome guy »

Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?

you really think that's what research shows? That a white and black in the exact same situation get wildly different punishments? I think most all research in this area is highly biased and likely conducted by someone with a political agenda to push. It's also about impossible to objectify. For example, when brought to authorities, how does it take into account the white guy being polite and apologetic vs. the black calling them a MoFuer? That type of interaction explains why blacks may get harsher treatment in my experience. The Chris Rock video on here before has a lot of truth in it, ghetto people just don't know how to behave and unfortunately, a disproportionate share of blacks are ghetto people. So the path to equalizing any discrepancy is teaching ghetto people how to behave with the cops and school officials. Cursing them out will just bring harsher punishment. Also, don't lie. Ghetto people will swear up and down they're innocent, even if you have them on video, they'll claim you hired DreamWorks to CGI them into the video. They should be honest about what happened or take the 5th. Not destroy their credibility by saying the first laughable excuse that pops into their head.

All that said and more to the article. it bothers me because it's racial. If they were to come out against zero-tolerance then I think they would have had broader support, if we were to also overlook the fact Holder should be impeached for his lack of ethics, illegal behavior, and gross competence. Anyway, they're not against zero-tolerance, they're against blacks people facing punishment. It's an inherently racial position when they could have made a reasonable one about turning kids into criminals. Instead they went racial because they are racists.
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UpstateSCHokie
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by awesome guy »

UpstateSCHokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.
how can they say it's racial while at the same time everyone caught with a gun for example is automatically turned over to the police and expelled? IE, there is 0 tolerance, everyone receives harsh treatment. With 0 tolerance, if more blacks are being arrested that means more blacks are committing the crime. What else can it be since everyone receives the same heavy handed treatment? The kid with the pop-tart gun is getting in trouble just the same as the kid with the .38.

They should focus on the issue of punishment instead of being racists.
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by oaktonhokie »

in my opinion, one of the reasons for the absurd zero tolerance policy, is to take discretion out of the hands of teachers. They are racists, you know.

This is supposed to make everyone equal, every crime equal all acts of misbehaviour equal. Teachers have no judgement, no insight, no influence on the decision. They are robots. Following orders.

Again in my opinion, it is the silly zero tolerance policy, that forces teachers to enforce really really stupid rules.

A child with a half eaten pop tart in the shape of a gun must be treated as a criminal, because criminals with real guns are also treated as criminals.

awesome guy wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.
how can they say it's racial while at the same time everyone caught with a gun for example is automatically turned over to the police and expelled? IE, there is 0 tolerance, everyone receives harsh treatment. With 0 tolerance, if more blacks are being arrested that means more blacks are committing the crime. What else can it be since everyone receives the same heavy handed treatment? The kid with the pop-tart gun is getting in trouble just the same as the kid with the .38.

They should focus on the issue of punishment instead of being racists.
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by awesome guy »

oaktonhokie wrote:in my opinion, one of the reasons for the absurd zero tolerance policy, is to take discretion out of the hands of teachers. They are racists, you know.

This is supposed to make everyone equal, every crime equal all acts of misbehaviour equal. Teachers have no judgement, no insight, no influence on the decision. They are robots. Following orders.

Again in my opinion, it is the silly zero tolerance policy, that forces teachers to enforce really really stupid rules.

A child with a half eaten pop tart in the shape of a gun must be treated as a criminal, because criminals with real guns are also treated as criminals.

awesome guy wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.
how can they say it's racial while at the same time everyone caught with a gun for example is automatically turned over to the police and expelled? IE, there is 0 tolerance, everyone receives harsh treatment. With 0 tolerance, if more blacks are being arrested that means more blacks are committing the crime. What else can it be since everyone receives the same heavy handed treatment? The kid with the pop-tart gun is getting in trouble just the same as the kid with the .38.

They should focus on the issue of punishment instead of being racists.
Yep. and to loons like Holder, it's white privilege for the kid to have the pop tart in the first place so he needs to be taken down a peg till blacks can have pop tarts too. That's social justice in action.
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Cpt Jagdish
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by Cpt Jagdish »

UpstateSCHokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.

I do not like zero tolerance. The world is not black and white. So okay, let's blame the libs for that.

And I havn't had a chance to review the research or the studies that were made about punishment inequality. All I know is that the article that was posted says that schools (and they specifically named one system) are punishing black students more harshly and frequently for similar infractions as white students. That school system had to paid out a settlement.

But AwesomeGuy is an expert on this and has reviewed it those studies and has made the claim they are bunk. He knows better than the people conducting the studies so I dont know what to think.

But if he's wrong, then we can all agree that if school system are dolling out punishments differently for black students than white students then that should be fixed, right?
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by awesome guy »

Cpt Jagdish wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.

I do not like zero tolerance. The world is not black and white. So okay, let's blame the libs for that.

And I havn't had a chance to review the research or the studies that were made about punishment inequality. All I know is that the article that was posted says that schools (and they specifically named one system) are punishing black students more harshly and frequently for similar infractions as white students. That school system had to paid out a settlement.

But AwesomeGuy is an expert on this and has reviewed it those studies and has made the claim they are bunk. He knows better than the people conducting the studies so I dont know what to think.

But if he's wrong, then we can all agree that if school system are dolling out punishments differently for black students than white students then that should be fixed, right?
how can you have zero tolerance and racism in the same system? 0 tolerance means everyone gets the same the ridiculous treatment, regardless of circumstance. How are blacks singled out in that?

Do you not agree that a person even attempting such a study is looking for racism? Confirmation bias is very high.
Last edited by awesome guy on Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cpt Jagdish
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by Cpt Jagdish »

Cpt Jagdish wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.

I do not like zero tolerance. The world is not black and white. So okay, let's blame the libs for that.

And I havn't had a chance to review the research or the studies that were made about punishment inequality. All I know is that the article that was posted says that schools (and they specifically named one system) are punishing black students more harshly and frequently for similar infractions as white students. That school system had to paid out a settlement.

But AwesomeGuy is an expert on this and has reviewed it those studies and has made the claim they are bunk. He knows better than the people conducting the studies so I dont know what to think.

But if he's wrong, then we can all agree that if school system are dolling out punishments differently for black students than white students then that should be fixed, right?
I forgot to address your comment bolded above. Again, I havn't poured over the research so I can only go off what you posted:
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."
[/quote]

So there goes that theory.

But I will agree with you 100%, it starts at the home and I have no idea how you fix that. I would like to hear some suggestions? Because what we are doing right now doesnt work. Maybe if we had more guys like Harris Rosen? http://www.today.com/news/millionaire-u ... -1C9373666

"Rosen, 73, began his philanthropic efforts by paying for day care for parents in Tangelo Park, a community of about 3,000 people. When those children reached high school, he created a scholarship program in which he offered to pay free tuition to Florida state colleges for any students in the neighborhood.

In the two decades since starting the programs, Rosen has donated nearly $10 million, and the results have been remarkable. The high school graduation rate is now nearly 100 percent, and some property values have quadrupled. The crime rate has been cut in half, according to a study by the University of Central Florida."
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Cpt Jagdish wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:
Cpt Jagdish wrote:What's your angle? I apologize for assuming because I can only draw out conclusions from your title and obvious agreement with Oakton's similar post.
"Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record."
I think we can all agree that zero tolerance policies are BS. I've read countless posts on here multiple times about kids having a gun in their trunk or a child holding up gun fingers and being punished for it. So we all agree, zero tolerance policies are not good.

"The recommendations being issued Wednesday encourage schools to ensure that all school personnel are trained in classroom management, conflict resolution and approaches to de-escalate classroom disruptions."
....
...
"The government advises schools to establish procedures on how to distinguish between disciplinary infractions appropriately handled by school officials compared with major threats to school safety. And, it encourages schools to collect and monitor data that security or police officers take to ensure nondiscrimination."
Kind of touchy feeley stuff, so I can understand disagreements arising about this. But I get it, instead of just kicking students out and sending them down a path of criminal behavior, they want schools to funnel them towards a better future. So is the argument that these kids should just be kicked out and send to prison when they go down the wrong path or that the methods being outlined in these proposals are not effective? If it's the latter, what programs can be implemented that would be effective since obviously the parents are not part of the solution?


Or are you inferring that the government is suggesting that we let up on punishing minorities because that's not fair? Because what I get from these quotes from the article is that minorities are disproportionately being punished but that's probably because they commit more of the crimes, makes sense. But these quotes paint a different story:
"Already, in March of last year, the Justice Department spearheaded a settlement with the Meridian, Miss., school district to end discriminatory disciplinary practices. The black students in the district were facing harsher punishment than whites for similar misbehavior."
Research suggests the racial disparities in how students are disciplined are not explained by more frequent or more serious misbehavior by students of color, according to a letter sent to schools with the recommendations by the departments.
"For example, in our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students," the letter said. "In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem."

So basically, research is finding that black students are being punished more harshly and frequently for similar situations as white students. So are we arguing that should still be the case?

I don't get what the issue is?
You do realize that the reason we are in this mess is because of political correctness right? Zero tolerance is just an outgrowth of political correctness. There is "zero tolerance" for anything that resembles a gun in a school. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment made that may be racially insensitive. There is "zero tolerance" for any comment that might offend a gay person.

Libs gave us this zero tolerance policy, and now libs are whining because of it?

And is racial discrimination really a problem in our schools, or are people color more likely to break school rules? I would guess that color really isn't the problem here, the problem is the break-down of the traditional family (one father and one mother) in the homes of the children that are most likely to get in trouble. But this break-down of the family unit is pandemic in the black community - so this results in black kids not getting the discipline they need at home and being more likely to get in trouble.

I do not like zero tolerance. The world is not black and white. So okay, let's blame the libs for that.

And I havn't had a chance to review the research or the studies that were made about punishment inequality. All I know is that the article that was posted says that schools (and they specifically named one system) are punishing black students more harshly and frequently for similar infractions as white students. That school system had to paid out a settlement.

But AwesomeGuy is an expert on this and has reviewed it those studies and has made the claim they are bunk. He knows better than the people conducting the studies so I dont know what to think.

But if he's wrong, then we can all agree that if school system are dolling out punishments differently for black students than white students then that should be fixed, right?

I absolutely agree with you that justice should be blind and that we should punish the behavior, not the skin color. And every situation is different (i.e. the severity of the infraction is different, the circumstances are different, whether or not the student is a repeat offender is different). If it can be proven that a school, a teacher, or even an attorney general of the U.S. is doling out punishment based on race, then we can all agree that's wrong.
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Cpt Jagdish
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Re: In the post racial Obama era, everything is racial....

Post by Cpt Jagdish »

Cool, high five! I will say though that if those studies are incredibly flawed, then this is a bunch of BS. But I havnt poured through them.
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