So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-comments?

[Valencia Hokie]

So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?

I'm not sure where this line of questioning is coming from in the whole thread but, that's not the point Sam A is making, nor is it one I think Ham is making.

The church is FULL of sinners, esp. the guy up front. But there is also the principle/practice of not openly or knowingly excusing sin or encouraging it. Every church is full of liars, but no healthy church is encouraging/condoning lying. In this case, I think it's been correctly stated: performing a gay marriage is an open endorsement of the act itself. You can't do that and obey the commands to flee immorality.

That being said, as with any sin, the timeline and engagement with sinners should be gracious and helpful. The day I drive a person struggling (doing it but not agreeing that it is right) with homosexuality out of our church, I need to kick every heterosexual man out of the church for lust and porn.

[awesome guy]

I would look to Mathew, the tax collector for a great example of redemption. Tax payers were the most loathsome of the loathsome in his day. And there was a lifestyle built around that of riches, partying, and being with all the other loathsome sinners. They were the bottom of barrel, much like homosexuals today. And even one as loathsome as Mathew was given grace, redemption, and made clean. So much he became a disciple, a miracle in Jesus heeling his heart. And as he was saved, he stopped being a tax collector. He stopped the sinful lifestyle. He walked away from sin for he was saved. A saved homosexual will do the same, walk away from their sinful lifestyle. Sinners of all sorts should also follow this.

That doesn't answer the question, though. Can a homosexual accept Christ as their Savior?

Sure it does. I'm saying once they accept Christ, they'll stop being a homosexual. Otherwise they haven't accepted him as they're still holding onto their sinful and dead selves. They haven't been born again with the kingdom inside them.

So, Christians are no longer sinners?

Christians are continually cleansing themselves of their sins. We're all sinners. But how can the homosexual cleanse what he doesn't consider filth? That's the whole rub, they're saying Jesus and the bible are wrong, not them. Christians confess it is them who is wrong, thus asking for forgiveness.

[HokieHam]

If a church didn't allow sinners to attend, who would be in the pew? That's the point of Christianity, that we're all sinners. We're all "openly living in sin," as you say. Have you "abandoned all sin" in your life? Are you 100% free of sin? Are you attempting not to sin at all, or are you comfortable with some of your sins? You single out gay Christians because of your issues with homophobia, but is being gay worse than your sins? Do you rank sins?

Having said that, I can't see any reason why a Christian church should be performing a gay marriage.

sure. But then they would stop being a homosexual as they abandon all sin in their life.

Yes, we are sinners. We are still chained to this earthly flesh and as Paul says I don't do what I want to do and do what I don't want to do....but we are called to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, to allow the Holy Spirit to sanctify(to work(maybe not the best word) toward holiness), to put sin to death in our lives. Sin is sin. We all break the commandment to love God with all our hearts, minds and souls. I haven't done that perfectly for one second of my life. But there is one that did EVERY second He was here and there rest my righteousness.
Am I perfect? Nope. Do I fail. Yup. But I feel remorse over these failures. I pray for strength to carry on and not do certain things and to do as I should. If you are sinning, the Spirit will convict and cause you to turn from it. That is a benefit of being part of a local body of believers. There is accountability. If you notice someone living "openly in sin", we are called to confront them and tell them to turn from that sin. This goes for any sin. And yes, homosexuality is a sin, despite what others would try to get you to believe. It just happens that there is a big push currently by homosexuals to say that what they do is not sin. Matthew Vines book is a current example. He totally twist scripture and that is at the heart of the matter. Once you start to question scripture and minimize sin, what do you have? And I for one believe this "agenda" will be used for the persecution of the church here.....

[Marine Hokie]

God's dietary laws in Leviticus are for a specific people at a specific time in a specific place. It does not apply to Christians in 2014.
The instructions from Jesus in the New Testament on putting things in your body supersedes Old Testament dietary laws.

That's a horrible analogy.

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

Where is the analogy? It's not an analogy... it's my opinion. And I fully expect in 30 years you will all see that I was correct. Many of you deep down understand things are heading this way already

[HokieHam]

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

It figures you would throw out the old shellfish canard.....LOL.

[VoiceOfReason]

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

Yup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope. Scripture doesn't evolve. The Presbyterians will likely not be viewed as Christian by other Christians as they depart from the scripture.

The human interpretation of scripture most certainly has evolved and will continue to evolve. However imperfectly you believe that to be... it is part of our human reality.

[VoiceOfReason]

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

It figures you would throw out the old shellfish canard.....LOL.

I could have gone with slavery... I thought I was showing restraint

And since you brought it up... isn't HokieHam forbidden in the Old Testament too?

[awesome guy]

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

Yup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope. Scripture doesn't evolve. The Presbyterians will likely not be viewed as Christian by other Christians as they depart from the scripture.

The human interpretation of scripture most certainly has evolved and will continue to evolve. However imperfectly you believe that to be... it is part of our human reality.

There's no way to evolve something explicitly called an abomination into sin free status. For the shellfish canard, Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law, removing dietary commands. So there wasn't a change of interpretation, there was a change in the convenient with God via him giving us a Messiah. There's no way to de-sin homosexuality.

[HokieHam]

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

It figures you would throw out the old shellfish canard.....LOL.

I could have gone with slavery... I thought I was showing restraint

And since you brought it up... isn't HokieHam forbidden in the Old Testament too?

The slavery canard..... Yes I was forbidden in the OT, but Peter had a dream about me being okay now......

[HokieHam]

So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?

I'm not sure where this line of questioning is coming from in the whole thread but, that's not the point Sam A is making, nor is it one I think Ham is making.

The church is FULL of sinners, esp. the guy up front. But there is also the principle/practice of not openly or knowingly excusing sin or encouraging it. Every church is full of liars, but no healthy church is encouraging/condoning lying. In this case, I think it's been correctly stated: performing a gay marriage is an open endorsement of the act itself. You can't do that and obey the commands to flee immorality.

That being said, as with any sin, the timeline and engagement with sinners should be gracious and helpful. The day I drive a person struggling (doing it but not agreeing that it is right) with homosexuality out of our church, I need to kick every heterosexual man out of the church for lust and porn.

Well said. And Mark Dever's stuff is really good!

[Hokie5150]

So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?

I'm not sure where this line of questioning is coming from in the whole thread but, that's not the point Sam A is making, nor is it one I think Ham is making.

The church is FULL of sinners, esp. the guy up front. But there is also the principle/practice of not openly or knowingly excusing sin or encouraging it. Every church is full of liars, but no healthy church is encouraging/condoning lying. In this case, I think it's been correctly stated: performing a gay marriage is an open endorsement of the act itself. You can't do that and obey the commands to flee immorality.

That being said, as with any sin, the timeline and engagement with sinners should be gracious and helpful. The day I drive a person struggling (doing it but not agreeing that it is right) with homosexuality out of our church, I need to kick every heterosexual man out of the church for lust and porn.

Well said. And Mark Dever's stuff is really good!

Any church, by putting a sinner up front, is "endorsing sin" you apply your definition with any intellectual honesty. The point is that being saved is a matter of accepting Christ as one's Savior...not who one marries or doesn't marry. Seeing as every Christian is a sinner, who is in a position to judge the sinfulness of another believer?

[awesome guy]

So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?

I'm not sure where this line of questioning is coming from in the whole thread but, that's not the point Sam A is making, nor is it one I think Ham is making.

The church is FULL of sinners, esp. the guy up front. But there is also the principle/practice of not openly or knowingly excusing sin or encouraging it. Every church is full of liars, but no healthy church is encouraging/condoning lying. In this case, I think it's been correctly stated: performing a gay marriage is an open endorsement of the act itself. You can't do that and obey the commands to flee immorality.

That being said, as with any sin, the timeline and engagement with sinners should be gracious and helpful. The day I drive a person struggling (doing it but not agreeing that it is right) with homosexuality out of our church, I need to kick every heterosexual man out of the church for lust and porn.

Well said. And Mark Dever's stuff is really good!

Any church, by putting a sinner up front, is "endorsing sin" you apply your definition with any intellectual honesty. The point is that being saved is a matter of accepting Christ as one's Savior...not who one marries or doesn't marry. Seeing as every Christian is a sinner, who is in a position to judge the sinfulness of another believer?

Would you accept drunkenness in the church? The preacher using the Sunday service as a pie eating contest? The preacher banging his secretary in front of the congregation on the pew? If not, then you also understand why an open and unapologetic homosexual is also not accepted in the church with their partner and their very sin being acted out within the church.

[USN_Hokie]

"Like Jesus would ever own a gun...."

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That’s enough!” he replied.
—Gospel of Luke 22:36-38, NIV

[Uprising]

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

Not only that, but they will say it was God's will the whole time. And they will take credit for leading the rest of the world to accepting homosexuality.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[awesome guy]

if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.

Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.

Not only that, but they will say it was God's will the whole time. And they will take credit for leading the rest of the world to accepting homosexuality.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

In 30 years, people are going to be disgusted and repulsed that homosexuality was accepted as it is in our times. The whole silliness of not judging others will disappear as liberals remove themselves from the gene pool and the rest see the harm created by such policies.

[Valencia Hokie]

Any church, by putting a sinner up front, is "endorsing sin" you apply your definition with any intellectual honesty. The point is that being saved is a matter of accepting Christ as one's Savior...not who one marries or doesn't marry. Seeing as every Christian is a sinner, who is in a position to judge the sinfulness of another believer?

You raise an interesting point on judging. I'm actually preaching through that section of the Gospels right now. I don't think Jesus statement "don't judge" is to be understood as we cant judge ever. In the same breath he says "do pardon" which is a legal declaration of forgiveness or release from judgment. So he is commanding release from judgements that are being made. Beyond that, the whole context is about judging "accurately" and I think that means not simply judging outwardly - not knowing the heart. He even calls certain people to make moral judgments in the context.

We are commanded to make judgments - evaluation of behavior in accord with moral mandates (like someone who is knowingly misrepresenting the truth and their is undeniable evidence). You have to make a judgement there. However, our judgments should be full of mercy and pardon (not condemning but coming along side to help) in light of the fact that we CAN see the degree of sin in our own heart (motives) and Jesus says that's the log we have to see before we go speck hunting.

[HokieHam]

So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?

I'm not sure where this line of questioning is coming from in the whole thread but, that's not the point Sam A is making, nor is it one I think Ham is making.

The church is FULL of sinners, esp. the guy up front. But there is also the principle/practice of not openly or knowingly excusing sin or encouraging it. Every church is full of liars, but no healthy church is encouraging/condoning lying. In this case, I think it's been correctly stated: performing a gay marriage is an open endorsement of the act itself. You can't do that and obey the commands to flee immorality.

That being said, as with any sin, the timeline and engagement with sinners should be gracious and helpful. The day I drive a person struggling (doing it but not agreeing that it is right) with homosexuality out of our church, I need to kick every heterosexual man out of the church for lust and porn.

Well said. And Mark Dever's stuff is really good!

Any church, by putting a sinner up front, is "endorsing sin" you apply your definition with any intellectual honesty. The point is that being saved is a matter of accepting Christ as one's Savior...not who one marries or doesn't marry. Seeing as every Christian is a sinner, who is in a position to judge the sinfulness of another believer?

Yes, accepting Christ as savior....but you leave off the repent part. The scriptures are clear on what is and isn't sin. We are exhorted to confront sin in other believers. We are told to discipline them if they do not turn from it. So if a guy claims to be saved but continues to pork his sexcretary, where is the evidence of said salvation. Are you aware of the concept of sanctification?

[Uprising]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /10922053/

Individual churches will have to 'confirm' this, but apparently there's not a huge fight expected. Clergy with same sex partners were approved three years ago, I believe. It takes effect where such marriages are otherwise legal, as I understand it.

I vaguely remember when I was laughed at for suggesting that Christian churches will "evolve" by supporting SSM. Churches are about getting butts in the seats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not all of them........

Exactly. And while you may see some of the more liberal sects allow this (it's not "evolving" btw), it reflects the hierarchy of the church "leaders" turning away from scripture.

But this also can be found in the Bible so it comes as no real surprise that some "churches" are devolving.

This is absolutely analogous to evolution. The secular world has divided the church like a river would divide two groups. One group is now in a world that is increasingly more hostile to their ideas. That group will likely split again and again. In a few generations, whoever is left with that original idea, will be seen as a fringe cult and on its way to extinction. It is natural selection of the meme.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Hokie5150]

So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?

I'm not sure where this line of questioning is coming from in the whole thread but, that's not the point Sam A is making, nor is it one I think Ham is making.

The church is FULL of sinners, esp. the guy up front. But there is also the principle/practice of not openly or knowingly excusing sin or encouraging it. Every church is full of liars, but no healthy church is encouraging/condoning lying. In this case, I think it's been correctly stated: performing a gay marriage is an open endorsement of the act itself. You can't do that and obey the commands to flee immorality.

That being said, as with any sin, the timeline and engagement with sinners should be gracious and helpful. The day I drive a person struggling (doing it but not agreeing that it is right) with homosexuality out of our church, I need to kick every heterosexual man out of the church for lust and porn.

Well said. And Mark Dever's stuff is really good!

Any church, by putting a sinner up front, is "endorsing sin" you apply your definition with any intellectual honesty. The point is that being saved is a matter of accepting Christ as one's Savior...not who one marries or doesn't marry. Seeing as every Christian is a sinner, who is in a position to judge the sinfulness of another believer?

Yes, accepting Christ as savior....but you leave off the repent part. The scriptures are clear on what is and isn't sin. We are exhorted to confront sin in other believers. We are told to discipline them if they do not turn from it. So if a guy claims to be saved but continues to pork his sexcretary, where is the evidence of said salvation. Are you aware of the concept of sanctification?

You can repent and still be sinner...

[awesome guy]

You can repent and still be sinner...

I don't understand your hangup here.

[Hokie5150]

Would you accept drunkenness in the church? The preacher using the Sunday service as a pie eating contest? The preacher banging his secretary in front of the congregation on the pew? If not, then you also understand why an open and unapologetic homosexual is also not accepted in the church with their partner and their very sin being acted out within the church.

So, you're saying one sin is greater than another. Gotcha. Because that man up there preaching to you is still a sinner and he sins every day...including while he's up there preaching to you.

[Hokie5150]

You can repent and still be sinner...

I don't understand your hangup here.

No hang up at all...

[awesome guy]

Would you accept drunkenness in the church? The preacher using the Sunday service as a pie eating contest? The preacher banging his secretary in front of the congregation on the pew? If not, then you also understand why an open and unapologetic homosexual is also not accepted in the church with their partner and their very sin being acted out within the church.

So, you're saying one sin is greater than another. Gotcha. Because that man up there preaching to you is still a sinner and he sins every day...including while he's up there preaching to you.

No, I'm saying one sin is being acted out within the church. Not only acted out, but accepted as righteous.

[HokieHam]

So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?

I'm not sure where this line of questioning is coming from in the whole thread but, that's not the point Sam A is making, nor is it one I think Ham is making.

The church is FULL of sinners, esp. the guy up front. But there is also the principle/practice of not openly or knowingly excusing sin or encouraging it. Every church is full of liars, but no healthy church is encouraging/condoning lying. In this case, I think it's been correctly stated: performing a gay marriage is an open endorsement of the act itself. You can't do that and obey the commands to flee immorality.

That being said, as with any sin, the timeline and engagement with sinners should be gracious and helpful. The day I drive a person struggling (doing it but not agreeing that it is right) with homosexuality out of our church, I need to kick every heterosexual man out of the church for lust and porn.

Well said. And Mark Dever's stuff is really good!

Any church, by putting a sinner up front, is "endorsing sin" you apply your definition with any intellectual honesty. The point is that being saved is a matter of accepting Christ as one's Savior...not who one marries or doesn't marry. Seeing as every Christian is a sinner, who is in a position to judge the sinfulness of another believer?

Yes, accepting Christ as savior....but you leave off the repent part. The scriptures are clear on what is and isn't sin. We are exhorted to confront sin in other believers. We are told to discipline them if they do not turn from it. So if a guy claims to be saved but continues to pork his sexcretary, where is the evidence of said salvation. Are you aware of the concept of sanctification?

You can repent and still be sinner...

Not refuting that.....

[VoiceOfReason]

Would you accept drunkenness in the church? The preacher using the Sunday service as a pie eating contest? The preacher banging his secretary in front of the congregation on the pew? If not, then you also understand why an open and unapologetic homosexual is also not accepted in the church with their partner and their very sin being acted out within the church.

Would you accept drunkenness in the church? - They do serve wine do they not? Most sermons I have sat though would improve with alcohol consumption.

The preacher using the Sunday service as a pie eating contest? - Better than the little mini wafers they serve. Add in ice cream and I am there!

The preacher banging his secretary in front of the congregation on the pew? - If the secretary is hot... that might be the BEST. SERVICE. EVER!!!

[Preacher] THIS is the Word of the Lord!

[Secretary] Thanks... OHH!... be to GOD. OOH!

Even Monty Python didn't go there... tho maybe they should have