So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-comments?

[hokie80]

From membership, clergy, and marriage. They can attend, but not as a couple.[/quote]

So they could go to services. But not sit together?

[awesome guy]

But churches should NOT accept as members those openly living in sin. Church discipline has taken a back seat in our day and age.

We all openly live in sin every day...

You're at a level of absurdity now that I can't continue this without insulting you. We'll just mark you down as pro gay marriage and pro gay clergy, regardless of it being an abomination, and move on.

[hokie80]

As a couple, yep.

If they are just sitting together, how do you know they are a couple? How do you see the sin? Gaydar?

Really?

Really? Two men walk into your church and sit together to participate in the worship service. Gay or not?

I have no idea.

2 gays show up in the same car, have the same address, and refer to each as partners or spouses and we know what's going on.

So the qualifier is knowing?

So if a hetero couple is swinging and attending church but no one else in the church knows, that's different somehow?

[Hokie5150]

As a couple, yep.

If they are just sitting together, how do you know they are a couple? How do you see the sin? Gaydar?

Really?

Really? Two men walk into your church and sit together to participate in the worship service. Gay or not?

I have no idea.

2 gays show up in the same car, have the same address, and refer to each as partners or spouses and we know what's going on.

OK...so now, you're moving the goal post. Good for you. Perhaps you could give them a scarlet letter to wear so no one is confused.

[awesome guy]

As a couple, yep.

If they are just sitting together, how do you know they are a couple? How do you see the sin? Gaydar?

Really?

Really? Two men walk into your church and sit together to participate in the worship service. Gay or not?

I have no idea.

2 gays show up in the same car, have the same address, and refer to each as partners or spouses and we know what's going on.

So the qualifier is knowing?

So if a hetero couple is swinging and attending church but no one else in the church knows, that's different somehow?

well, no, it's not.

It's still sinful, but the church isn't aware of it. Once they are, same rules apply as to the gays.

[awesome guy]

As a couple, yep.

If they are just sitting together, how do you know they are a couple? How do you see the sin? Gaydar?

Really?

Really? Two men walk into your church and sit together to participate in the worship service. Gay or not?

I have no idea.

2 gays show up in the same car, have the same address, and refer to each as partners or spouses and we know what's going on.

OK...so now, you're moving the goal post. Good for you. Perhaps you could give them a scarlet letter to wear so no one is confused.

I'm doing no such thing.

[Hokie5150]

But churches should NOT accept as members those openly living in sin. Church discipline has taken a back seat in our day and age.

We all openly live in sin every day...

You're at a level of absurdity now that I can't continue this without insulting you. We'll just mark you down as pro gay marriage and pro gay clergy, regardless of it being an abomination, and move on.

No. I'm pro being a Christian means accepting Christ as your personal Savior and that Salvation is between the saved and Christ. The rest is gymnastics that has very little to do with salvation and everything to do with dogma.

[Hokie5150]

So they could go to services. But not sit together?

Absolutely not...it might rub off.

[awesome guy]

But churches should NOT accept as members those openly living in sin. Church discipline has taken a back seat in our day and age.

We all openly live in sin every day...

You're at a level of absurdity now that I can't continue this without insulting you. We'll just mark you down as pro gay marriage and pro gay clergy, regardless of it being an abomination, and move on.

No. I'm pro being a Christian means accepting Christ as your personal Savior and that Salvation is between the saved and Christ. The rest is gymnastics that has very little to do with salvation and everything to do with dogma.

False. You can't have someone who denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy. And they're spreading that blasphemy to others, interfering with their salvation.

[Hokie5150]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[awesome guy]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're not saved if you continue acting in evil.

[hokie80]

It's still sinful, but the church isn't aware of it. Once they are, same rules apply as to the gays.[/quote]

So once a church is aware of one's sin, they should be ostracized by the church, regardless of the sin.

Got it.

Church is going to be very empty but the the local wooden plank supplier will be making bank.

[awesome guy]

So once a church is aware of one's sin, they should be ostracized by the church, regardless of the sin.

Got it.

Church is going to be very empty but the the local wooden plank supplier will be making bank.

They should be counseled. That can happen in may ways and without burning them in the town square.

[Hokie5150]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're not saved if you continue acting in evil.

But if you believe, you are not condemned for that sin. You don't stop being a sinner when you are saved. Even the best among continue to sin daily in thought, word and deed. It is part of the fallen nature of man and why Christ was needed.

[hokie80]

So once a church is aware of one's sin, they should be ostracized by the church, regardless of the sin.

Got it.

Church is going to be very empty but the the local wooden plank supplier will be making bank.

They should be counseled. That can happen in may ways and without burning them in the town square.

But only if you know about it. As long as they lie about it (another sin) and keep it secret, all is good and they can sit in the good pews.

[awesome guy]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're not saved if you continue acting in evil.

But if you believe, you are not condemned for that sin. You don't stop being a sinner when you are saved. Even the best among continue to sin daily in thought, word and deed. It is part of the fallen nature of man and why Christ was needed.

You are absolutely trying your best to be obtuse on this.

Can you not see the difference between one who recognizes their sin and is working to purge it from their life and one who denies there's any sin in his life at all? The one who recognizes the plank in his eye will work to remove it. With the gays, they not only say there's no plank, but you should have a plank in your eye too. We certainly don't make such people church leaders or members.

[Hokie5150]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're not saved if you continue acting in evil.

But if you believe, you are not condemned for that sin. You don't stop being a sinner when you are saved. Even the best among continue to sin daily in thought, word and deed. It is part of the fallen nature of man and why Christ was needed.

You are absolutely trying your best to be obtuse on this.

Can you not see the difference between one who recognizes their sin and is working to purge it from their life and one who denies there's any sin in his life at all? The one who recognizes the plank in his eye will work to remove it. With the gays, they not only say there's no plank, but you should have a plank in your eye too. We certainly don't make such people church leaders or members.

Where did Christ say being gay was a sin?

[HokieHam]

You are picking nits here.......

Nope...you are picking and choosing which sins to get your panties in a bunch over.

Absolutely not....

[awesome guy]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're not saved if you continue acting in evil.

But if you believe, you are not condemned for that sin. You don't stop being a sinner when you are saved. Even the best among continue to sin daily in thought, word and deed. It is part of the fallen nature of man and why Christ was needed.

You are absolutely trying your best to be obtuse on this.

Can you not see the difference between one who recognizes their sin and is working to purge it from their life and one who denies there's any sin in his life at all? The one who recognizes the plank in his eye will work to remove it. With the gays, they not only say there's no plank, but you should have a plank in your eye too. We certainly don't make such people church leaders or members.

Where did Christ say being gay was a sin?

he said marriage is between a man and a woman. And he didn't rebuke the notation of it as sin either. Paul and the disciples reaffirmed it as sin.

[HokieHam]

come on dude. Are you turning 80 on us and can see into the hearts of the choir? It takes no such gift to see the sin of homosexuals, it's visible with the eyes.

It takes no gift to know that ALL humans are sinners. Therefore, the sin is right there before you...

Which sin? How can I know what sin is in your heart by looking at you? I have no such issue seeing the sin of homosexuality.

You're conflating some generic sense of we're all sinners with seeing specific sins and embracing them as they're being acted out.

Why do you need to see the sin? Is one sin greater than another? Again, what is the hierarchy of sin?

You are picking nits here.......

How so? Seems he's distilled the issue down to the heart of the matter. What is the hierarchy of sin?

There is no hierarchy of sin....I'm not arguing that.

[hokie80]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're not saved if you continue acting in evil.

But if you believe, you are not condemned for that sin. You don't stop being a sinner when you are saved. Even the best among continue to sin daily in thought, word and deed. It is part of the fallen nature of man and why Christ was needed.

You are absolutely trying your best to be obtuse on this.

Can you not see the difference between one who recognizes their sin and is working to purge it from their life and one who denies there's any sin in his life at all? The one who recognizes the plank in his eye will work to remove it. With the gays, they not only say there's no plank, but you should have a plank in your eye too. We certainly don't make such people church leaders or members.

No. I'm trying to understand the rationale of wanting to make some sinners feel like second class citizens in a church full of sinners.

And I would be willing to put up my house that most members "in good standing" of most churches sin daily.

I do agree with you on church leadership or that a church shouldn't sanction gay marriage and conduct gay marriage ceremonies.

But I was asking about people attending church. Not the leadership.

Jesus spent his time with and sought out the worst of the worst. He actually shunned and mocked the religious leaders of the day. The same type of folks that would have judged the sinner and not allowed them to attend services.

If the church closes their doors to active sinners, they church would be empty.

[awesome guy]

No. I'm trying to understand the rationale of wanting to make some sinners feel like second class citizens in a church full of sinners.

And I would be willing to put up my house that most members "in good standing" of most churches sin daily.

I do agree with you on church leadership or that a church shouldn't sanction gay marriage and conduct gay marriage ceremonies.

But I was asking about people attending church. Not the leadership.

Jesus spent his time with and sought out the worst of the worst. He actually shunned and mocked the religious leaders of the day. The same type of folks that would have judged the sinner and not allowed them to attend services.

If the church closes their doors to active sinners, they church would be empty.

All sinners are second class citizens in the church. And since that's everyone, it means nothing.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I said gays should be able to attend service, just not act gay there(hold hands, make a scene of it, etc.). Why is that so disagreeable?

And for the second class citizen stuff, what of hetro couples who cohabitate? Do they not feel as second class citizens too? They're counseled and "ostracized" in the same way as the gays. Divorced people? Drunks? Alcoholics? I can't think of anyone who gets a pass for their sin. I have a potty mouth and get funny looks when I let out a potty word, feeling ostracized. Removing sin is a function of the church.

[USN_Hokie]

But churches should NOT accept as members those openly living in sin. Church discipline has taken a back seat in our day and age.

We all openly live in sin every day...

WADR, your understanding here reduces the purpose of a church to an amoral chorus club. Seriously, what function does the church serve in your eyes?

[HokieHam]

You can't someone you denies their own sin speaking on behalf of the lord. That's very much to the heart of salvation, the homosexual isn't saved, they aren't battling the sin within them, they're even worse than capitulating to it, they're telling everyone else it's not even a sin. So it becomes another sin of blasphemy.

False. THIS is heart of salvation:

John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You're not saved if you continue acting in evil.

But if you believe, you are not condemned for that sin. You don't stop being a sinner when you are saved. Even the best among continue to sin daily in thought, word and deed. It is part of the fallen nature of man and why Christ was needed.

You are absolutely trying your best to be obtuse on this.

Can you not see the difference between one who recognizes their sin and is working to purge it from their life and one who denies there's any sin in his life at all? The one who recognizes the plank in his eye will work to remove it. With the gays, they not only say there's no plank, but you should have a plank in your eye too. We certainly don't make such people church leaders or members.

Where did Christ say being gay was a sin?

You are being obtuse......the bible says it is a sin. In the OT and in the New. Christ affirmed the relationship between men and women in the created order in Matthew 19. Christ also confirmed many OT laws in his teachings. This is what I am arguing.....homosexuals are today trying to say that the scriptures do not speak on the matter of two homosexuals living together in a "loving, committed relationship" and that the biblical writers(or God) didn't even know relationships like that could exist....which is a total and complete lie. You don't think there were homosexuals in relationships living in the areas Paul served in?
I Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice the word "were".........

[Hokie5150]

There is no hierarchy of sin....I'm not arguing that.

But you certainly seem to have more issue with certain sins over others.