So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-comments?

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Hokie5150
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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HokieHam wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
nova1111 wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /10922053/

Individual churches will have to 'confirm' this, but apparently there's not a huge fight expected. Clergy with same sex partners were approved three years ago, I believe. It takes effect where such marriages are otherwise legal, as I understand it.
We are all sinners, so I don't really see where this is such a big deal...
Yeah, we are, but the Scriptures call us to repent-to turn from our sin. Do you really want to be a part of a church that condones sin? If so, you compromise the gospel.
Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Hokie5150 wrote:Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
I would imagine that unrepentant sinners aren't invited back.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Hokie5150 wrote:
HokieHam wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
nova1111 wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /10922053/

Individual churches will have to 'confirm' this, but apparently there's not a huge fight expected. Clergy with same sex partners were approved three years ago, I believe. It takes effect where such marriages are otherwise legal, as I understand it.
We are all sinners, so I don't really see where this is such a big deal...
Yeah, we are, but the Scriptures call us to repent-to turn from our sin. Do you really want to be a part of a church that condones sin? If so, you compromise the gospel.
Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
No. The message is to abandon their sins and end their rebellion with God. And so church is exactly where us sinners should be, even the homosexuals. At the same time, sinners who refuse to abandon their sin can't lead the church. And they wouldn't be given marriages that are sin by their very existence.

Look at it another way, how can the homosexual be saved if they won't even admit what they do is sin? The gay churches are promoting this and yes, I think it's a path to hell. The path out is seeking forgiveness through our savior.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
HokieHam wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
nova1111 wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /10922053/

Individual churches will have to 'confirm' this, but apparently there's not a huge fight expected. Clergy with same sex partners were approved three years ago, I believe. It takes effect where such marriages are otherwise legal, as I understand it.
We are all sinners, so I don't really see where this is such a big deal...
Yeah, we are, but the Scriptures call us to repent-to turn from our sin. Do you really want to be a part of a church that condones sin? If so, you compromise the gospel.
Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
No. The message is to abandon their sins and end their rebellion with God. And so church is exactly where us sinners should be, even the homosexuals. At the same time, sinners who refuse to abandon their sin can't lead the church. And they wouldn't be given marriages that are sin by their very existence.

Look at it another way, how can the homosexual be saved if they won't even admit what they do is sin? The gay churches are promoting this and yes, I think it's a path to hell. The path out is seeking forgiveness through our savior.
Can a homosexual accept Christ as their personal Savior?
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
HokieHam wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
nova1111 wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /10922053/

Individual churches will have to 'confirm' this, but apparently there's not a huge fight expected. Clergy with same sex partners were approved three years ago, I believe. It takes effect where such marriages are otherwise legal, as I understand it.
We are all sinners, so I don't really see where this is such a big deal...
Yeah, we are, but the Scriptures call us to repent-to turn from our sin. Do you really want to be a part of a church that condones sin? If so, you compromise the gospel.
Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
No. The message is to abandon their sins and end their rebellion with God. And so church is exactly where us sinners should be, even the homosexuals. At the same time, sinners who refuse to abandon their sin can't lead the church. And they wouldn't be given marriages that are sin by their very existence.

Look at it another way, how can the homosexual be saved if they won't even admit what they do is sin? The gay churches are promoting this and yes, I think it's a path to hell. The path out is seeking forgiveness through our savior.
Can a homosexual accept Christ as their personal Savior?
sure. But then they would stop being a homosexual as they abandon all sin in their life.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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USN_Hokie wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
I would imagine that unrepentant sinners aren't invited back.
Mark 2:17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Does the repentant sinner need the church?
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Hokie5150 wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
I would imagine that unrepentant sinners aren't invited back.
Mark 2:17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Does the repentant sinner need the church?
yep, absolutely.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
HokieHam wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
nova1111 wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /10922053/

Individual churches will have to 'confirm' this, but apparently there's not a huge fight expected. Clergy with same sex partners were approved three years ago, I believe. It takes effect where such marriages are otherwise legal, as I understand it.
We are all sinners, so I don't really see where this is such a big deal...
Yeah, we are, but the Scriptures call us to repent-to turn from our sin. Do you really want to be a part of a church that condones sin? If so, you compromise the gospel.
Aren't they condoning sin by inviting sinners back week after week?
No. The message is to abandon their sins and end their rebellion with God. And so church is exactly where us sinners should be, even the homosexuals. At the same time, sinners who refuse to abandon their sin can't lead the church. And they wouldn't be given marriages that are sin by their very existence.

Look at it another way, how can the homosexual be saved if they won't even admit what they do is sin? The gay churches are promoting this and yes, I think it's a path to hell. The path out is seeking forgiveness through our savior.
Can a homosexual accept Christ as their personal Savior?
I would look to Mathew, the tax collector for a great example of redemption. Tax payers were the most loathsome of the loathsome in his day. And there was a lifestyle built around that of riches, partying, and being with all the other loathsome sinners. They were the bottom of barrel, much like homosexuals today. And even one as loathsome as Mathew was given grace, redemption, and made clean. So much he became a disciple, a miracle in Jesus heeling his heart. And as he was saved, he stopped being a tax collector. He stopped the sinful lifestyle. He walked away from sin for he was saved. A saved homosexual will do the same, walk away from their sinful lifestyle. Sinners of all sorts should also follow this.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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awesome guy wrote:I would look to Mathew, the tax collector for a great example of redemption. Tax payers were the most loathsome of the loathsome in his day. And there was a lifestyle built around that of riches, partying, and being with all the other loathsome sinners. They were the bottom of barrel, much like homosexuals today. And even one as loathsome as Mathew was given grace, redemption, and made clean. So much he became a disciple, a miracle in Jesus heeling his heart. And as he was saved, he stopped being a tax collector. He stopped the sinful lifestyle. He walked away from sin for he was saved. A saved homosexual will do the same, walk away from their sinful lifestyle. Sinners of all sorts should also follow this.
That doesn't answer the question, though. Can a homosexual accept Christ as their Savior?
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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hokie80 wrote:
HokieHam wrote:
hokie80 wrote:
HokieHam wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
nova1111 wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /10922053/

Individual churches will have to 'confirm' this, but apparently there's not a huge fight expected. Clergy with same sex partners were approved three years ago, I believe. It takes effect where such marriages are otherwise legal, as I understand it.
We are all sinners, so I don't really see where this is such a big deal...
Yeah, we are, but the Scriptures call us to repent-to turn from our sin. Do you really want to be a part of a church that condones sin? If so, you compromise the gospel.
I see no issue with churches opening their doors to any and all. Sin is sin and churches are full of sinners. Same sex couples should be welcome to attend. But they do so knowing that the subject of sin will be brought up and that it is addressed in the Bible.

But the church should not sanctions sin in any form by performing same sex marriages.
I agree. But churches should NOT accept as members those openly living in sin. Church discipline has taken a back seat in our day and age.
I'm actually not a fan of "membership" in a church. I don't see any real Biblical requirement for it. The church should be available for all and not give preference to "members". JMHO.
Although there is no specific command to "join a church", the bible is permeated with examples that this was the case. You can see this in the existence of church government, the example of the early church, the exercise of church discipline and the exhortation of others to mutual edification.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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If a church didn't allow sinners to attend, who would be in the pew? That's the point of Christianity, that we're all sinners. We're all "openly living in sin," as you say. Have you "abandoned all sin" in your life? Are you 100% free of sin? Are you attempting not to sin at all, or are you comfortable with some of your sins? You single out gay Christians because of your issues with homophobia, but is being gay worse than your sins? Do you rank sins?

Having said that, I can't see any reason why a Christian church should be performing a gay marriage.
awesome guy wrote: sure. But then they would stop being a homosexual as they abandon all sin in their life.
Last edited by Marine Hokie on Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I would look to Mathew, the tax collector for a great example of redemption. Tax payers were the most loathsome of the loathsome in his day. And there was a lifestyle built around that of riches, partying, and being with all the other loathsome sinners. They were the bottom of barrel, much like homosexuals today. And even one as loathsome as Mathew was given grace, redemption, and made clean. So much he became a disciple, a miracle in Jesus heeling his heart. And as he was saved, he stopped being a tax collector. He stopped the sinful lifestyle. He walked away from sin for he was saved. A saved homosexual will do the same, walk away from their sinful lifestyle. Sinners of all sorts should also follow this.
That doesn't answer the question, though. Can a homosexual accept Christ as their Savior?
Sure. But they are to turn from their sin.....sexual immorality. I would recommend a book by Sam Allberry.

http://reformedreader.wordpress.com/201 ... ttraction/
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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awesome guy wrote:
if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.
Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.
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VoiceOfReason wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.
Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.
Yup.


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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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HokieHam wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I would look to Mathew, the tax collector for a great example of redemption. Tax payers were the most loathsome of the loathsome in his day. And there was a lifestyle built around that of riches, partying, and being with all the other loathsome sinners. They were the bottom of barrel, much like homosexuals today. And even one as loathsome as Mathew was given grace, redemption, and made clean. So much he became a disciple, a miracle in Jesus heeling his heart. And as he was saved, he stopped being a tax collector. He stopped the sinful lifestyle. He walked away from sin for he was saved. A saved homosexual will do the same, walk away from their sinful lifestyle. Sinners of all sorts should also follow this.
That doesn't answer the question, though. Can a homosexual accept Christ as their Savior?
Sure. But they are to turn from their sin.....sexual immorality. I would recommend a book by Sam Allberry.

http://reformedreader.wordpress.com/201 ... ttraction/
So Christians no longer sin after accepting Christ?
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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VoiceOfReason wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.
Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.
Is not sinning a requirement for salvation and/or for being a Christian?
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Post by Valencia Hokie »

HokieHam wrote:
hokie80 wrote: I'm actually not a fan of "membership" in a church. I don't see any real Biblical requirement for it. The church should be available for all and not give preference to "members". JMHO.
Although there is no specific command to "join a church", the bible is permeated with examples that this was the case. You can see this in the existence of church government, the example of the early church, the exercise of church discipline and the exhortation of others to mutual edification.
Yep. I was where 80 was a few years ago. But after reading Mark Dever's stuff at 9 Marks, I changed my tune. Local church membership (exactly how it's defined or enacted is debatable) but the concept and practice is pretty much a "lock" in light of passages like Matt 18 and 1 Cor 5.

You should check out the site and read his arguments, 80. It's helpful stuff.
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Marine Hokie wrote:If a church didn't allow sinners to attend, who would be in the pew? That's the point of Christianity, that we're all sinners. We're all "openly living in sin," as you say. Have you "abandoned all sin" in your life? Are you 100% free of sin? Are you attempting not to sin at all, or are you comfortable with some of your sins? You single out gay Christians because of your issues with homophobia, but is being gay worse than your sins? Do you rank sins?

Having said that, I can't see any reason why a Christian church should be performing a gay marriage.
awesome guy wrote: sure. But then they would stop being a homosexual as they abandon all sin in their life.

I haven't abandoned all sin, but also few other sins intersect in such an open way as this. The whole lifestyle of homosexuality is sinful. Being an active homosexual isn't tackled like sloth or gluttony. I can not be a glutton on 6 days of the week. How can a homosexual "married" say the same? And what of when they vanquish their sin? Then they have to get a divorce for none biblical reasons, even though they have a non biblical marriage.
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That's a horrible analogy.
VoiceOfReason wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.
Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.
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Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I would look to Mathew, the tax collector for a great example of redemption. Tax payers were the most loathsome of the loathsome in his day. And there was a lifestyle built around that of riches, partying, and being with all the other loathsome sinners. They were the bottom of barrel, much like homosexuals today. And even one as loathsome as Mathew was given grace, redemption, and made clean. So much he became a disciple, a miracle in Jesus heeling his heart. And as he was saved, he stopped being a tax collector. He stopped the sinful lifestyle. He walked away from sin for he was saved. A saved homosexual will do the same, walk away from their sinful lifestyle. Sinners of all sorts should also follow this.
That doesn't answer the question, though. Can a homosexual accept Christ as their Savior?

Sure it does. I'm saying once they accept Christ, they'll stop being a homosexual. Otherwise they haven't accepted him as they're still holding onto their sinful and dead selves. They haven't been born again with the kingdom inside them.
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awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I would look to Mathew, the tax collector for a great example of redemption. Tax payers were the most loathsome of the loathsome in his day. And there was a lifestyle built around that of riches, partying, and being with all the other loathsome sinners. They were the bottom of barrel, much like homosexuals today. And even one as loathsome as Mathew was given grace, redemption, and made clean. So much he became a disciple, a miracle in Jesus heeling his heart. And as he was saved, he stopped being a tax collector. He stopped the sinful lifestyle. He walked away from sin for he was saved. A saved homosexual will do the same, walk away from their sinful lifestyle. Sinners of all sorts should also follow this.
That doesn't answer the question, though. Can a homosexual accept Christ as their Savior?

Sure it does. I'm saying once they accept Christ, they'll stop being a homosexual. Otherwise they haven't accepted him as they're still holding onto their sinful and dead selves. They haven't been born again with the kingdom inside them.
So, Christians are no longer sinners?
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So if a person is gay, that means they're a sinner 24/7. If a person is gluttonous, they're only a part-time sinner. Got it.

Best to keep the full time sinner out of church? Do you feel that's the purpose of the Christian Church? Exclusion of those most in need of the salvation of Christ?
awesome guy wrote:
Marine Hokie wrote:If a church didn't allow sinners to attend, who would be in the pew? That's the point of Christianity, that we're all sinners. We're all "openly living in sin," as you say. Have you "abandoned all sin" in your life? Are you 100% free of sin? Are you attempting not to sin at all, or are you comfortable with some of your sins? You single out gay Christians because of your issues with homophobia, but is being gay worse than your sins? Do you rank sins?

Having said that, I can't see any reason why a Christian church should be performing a gay marriage.
awesome guy wrote: sure. But then they would stop being a homosexual as they abandon all sin in their life.

I haven't abandoned all sin, but also few other sins intersect in such an open way as this. The whole lifestyle of homosexuality is sinful. Being an active homosexual isn't tackled like sloth or gluttony. I can not be a glutton on 6 days of the week. How can a homosexual "married" say the same? And what of when they vanquish their sin? Then they have to get a divorce for none biblical reasons, even though they have a non biblical marriage.
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nolanvt wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.
Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.
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Nope. Scripture doesn't evolve. The Presbyterians will likely not be viewed as Christian by other Christians as they depart from the scripture.
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Marine Hokie wrote:That's a horrible analogy.
VoiceOfReason wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
if you marry homosexuals, how can you say homosexuality is a sin? The act of Holy matrimony would be undermined by the relationship itself being unholy. It's like performing a marriage while worshiping a golden calf and then claiming you're Christian.
Exactly. The Preb Church is saying homosexuality is not a sin. I expect this interpretation will spread and in a generation or so the Bible passages about homosexuality will be considered about as relevant as the Bible passages on shellfish.
Where is the analogy? It's not an analogy... it's my opinion. And I fully expect in 30 years you will all see that I was correct. Many of you deep down understand things are heading this way already :mrgreen:
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Re: So Presbyterian assembly allows same sex marriage-commen

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Marine Hokie wrote:So if a person is gay, that means they're a sinner 24/7. If a person is gluttonous, they're only a part-time sinner. Got it.

Best to keep the full time sinner out of church? Do you feel that's the purpose of the Christian Church? Exclusion of those most in need of the salvation of Christ?
awesome guy wrote:
Marine Hokie wrote:If a church didn't allow sinners to attend, who would be in the pew? That's the point of Christianity, that we're all sinners. We're all "openly living in sin," as you say. Have you "abandoned all sin" in your life? Are you 100% free of sin? Are you attempting not to sin at all, or are you comfortable with some of your sins? You single out gay Christians because of your issues with homophobia, but is being gay worse than your sins? Do you rank sins?

Having said that, I can't see any reason why a Christian church should be performing a gay marriage.
awesome guy wrote: sure. But then they would stop being a homosexual as they abandon all sin in their life.

I haven't abandoned all sin, but also few other sins intersect in such an open way as this. The whole lifestyle of homosexuality is sinful. Being an active homosexual isn't tackled like sloth or gluttony. I can not be a glutton on 6 days of the week. How can a homosexual "married" say the same? And what of when they vanquish their sin? Then they have to get a divorce for none biblical reasons, even though they have a non biblical marriage.
We only eat 3 times a day. A person "married" to a homosexual is married 24/7. Not sure how you can break that out, it's part of their continual existence.

You need to reread what I wrote as I said the opposite of what you're saying I did.
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