Imagine if the thousands of people going to NFL

[BigDave]

Visor, you know I'm not anything close to religious, so this is a legitimate question: What do churches build, how many do they employ (and what sort of jobs?), and what do they spend $$$ on and how much?


I'm asking about ways they stimulate the economy- not the charitable actions they may or may not engage in.

Churches build and expand their buildings as they grow - from rectories to schools to the Church itself. Whether they have a school or not, they still may employ pastors (if Protestant), deacons, and lay persons. They also charge nominal fees for use of their facilities (weddings for example).

Deacons are normally not paid.

I go to a relatively large church (1000 or so most Sundays, probably 2500 registered members) and I think we have maybe five full-time staff (pastor, music minister, education minister, youth minister, secretary) and a few part-time people (security, janitor, and I think the organist is paid though I'm not sure).

[nc87]

Churches, of course, have a negligible net economic impact for the most part because their funding and spending are mostly local. There aren't very many people aren't coming from out of town to visit a church (the vast majority in a congregation is local) and so there's no net economic impact.

Thank you for the response. That is all I was looking for, and truly interested in- if churches have any economic impact whatsoever. We may disagree on the degree of impact an NFL franchise has on its city, but I think we can both agree that any impact is more than no impact - so NFL franchises are in fact better for the local economy than churches.

[nc87]

Visor, you know I'm not anything close to religious, so this is a legitimate question: What do churches build, how many do they employ (and what sort of jobs?), and what do they spend $$$ on and how much?


I'm asking about ways they stimulate the economy- not the charitable actions they may or may not engage in.

Churches build and expand their buildings as they grow - from rectories to schools to the Church itself. Whether they have a school or not, they still may employ pastors (if Protestant), deacons, and lay persons. They also charge nominal fees for use of their facilities (weddings for example).

Deacons are normally not paid.

I go to a relatively large church (1000 or so most Sundays, probably 2500 registered members) and I think we have maybe five full-time staff (pastor, music minister, education minister, youth minister, secretary) and a few part-time people (security, janitor, and I think the organist is paid though I'm not sure).

How many jobs, if you had to guess, are created by an NFL franchise?

[BigDave]

Church, on the other hand, does absolutely nothing to help the economy- in fact they drain resources and contribute zero. Nothing makes me more angry than seeing my tax dollars go to traffic cops directing traffic in and out of mega churches

This is obviously trolling and I will not dignify it with a response.

How is that trolling? How about explaining how church does help the economy? And I am genuinely angry when I see a traffic cop at a mega church directing traffic- the church does not pay taxes and IMO does not deserve free traffic cops

What in the world makes you think it's a free traffic cop? (And why would that make you angry? I see secular entities with cops directing traffic all the time. For instance, when I go home from work, there is a funeral home that has parking across the street and if they have a viewing, they always have a cop there directing traffic.)

Anyway, the church either hires an off-duty cop and pays him/her or it pays the city. (Different localities have different rules on such things. For example, I remember at Tech that if you had an event over a certain size, you were required to do one of those two - either hire an off-duty police officer or pay the VTPD to send a police officer.)

[BigDave]

Visor, you know I'm not anything close to religious, so this is a legitimate question: What do churches build, how many do they employ (and what sort of jobs?), and what do they spend $$$ on and how much?


I'm asking about ways they stimulate the economy- not the charitable actions they may or may not engage in.

Churches build and expand their buildings as they grow - from rectories to schools to the Church itself. Whether they have a school or not, they still may employ pastors (if Protestant), deacons, and lay persons. They also charge nominal fees for use of their facilities (weddings for example).

Deacons are normally not paid.

I go to a relatively large church (1000 or so most Sundays, probably 2500 registered members) and I think we have maybe five full-time staff (pastor, music minister, education minister, youth minister, secretary) and a few part-time people (security, janitor, and I think the organist is paid though I'm not sure).

How many jobs, if you had to guess, are created by an NFL franchise?

Again, you're asking the wrong question. Say it's 1000. And say that the city subsidized the NFL team with $100 million in tax preferences or towards the stadium (a very conservative estimate - I'm sure it's usually way more). That's a cost of $100K per job. On the other hand, my church was subsidized $0 by the city at a cost of $0 per job.

[nc87]

Church, on the other hand, does absolutely nothing to help the economy- in fact they drain resources and contribute zero. Nothing makes me more angry than seeing my tax dollars go to traffic cops directing traffic in and out of mega churches

This is obviously trolling and I will not dignify it with a response.

How is that trolling? How about explaining how church does help the economy? And I am genuinely angry when I see a traffic cop at a mega church directing traffic- the church does not pay taxes and IMO does not deserve free traffic cops

What in the world makes you think it's a free traffic cop? (And why would that make you angry? I see secular entities with cops directing traffic all the time. For instance, when I go home from work, there is a funeral home that has parking across the street and if they have a viewing, they always have a cop there directing traffic.)

Anyway, the church either hires an off-duty cop and pays him/her or it pays the city. (Different localities have different rules on such things. For example, I remember at Tech that if you had an event over a certain size, you were required to do one of those two - either hire an off-duty police officer or pay the VTPD to send a police officer.)

I hope you're right and they pay for their traffic directing services. I have my doubts, but it would make me feel better next time I'm stopped on a busy road just so church traffic can easily get in and out. To answer your question, I thought it was a free traffic cop because at NFL games, those directing traffic are not dressed as police.... the mega church I drive by has an actual city policeman directing traffic.

[nc87]

Again, you're asking the wrong question. Say it's 1000. And say that the city subsidized the NFL team with $100 million in tax preferences or towards the stadium (a very conservative estimate - I'm sure it's usually way more). That's a cost of $100K per job. On the other hand, my church was subsidized $0 by the city at a cost of $0 per job.

100 million every year? I would think once the stadium has been paid for, maintenance etc. would not be nearly that much.

Either way, the original poster makes it seem as if its a no-brainer that people should prefer to attend church over sports, and that a world in which more people went to church and less to NFL games would be a better place. I disagree, and would imagine NFL fans, bars/restaurants who depend on fans watching games, and especially all the people employed by the NFL would too.

[Marine Hokie]

I hope you're right and they pay for their traffic directing services. I have my doubts, but it would make me feel better next time I'm stopped on a busy road just so church traffic can easily get in and out. To answer your question, I thought it was a free traffic cop because at NFL games, those directing traffic are not dressed as police.... the mega church I drive by has an actual city policeman directing traffic.

It's the same as when a bar or large event hires police. Some bars have private security, some have police officers they pay (twice). When Apple delivers new iPhones to a launch, they hire local government or private security. It's pretty common.

Also, it's their job that taxes have paid them to do.

[nc87]

I hope you're right and they pay for their traffic directing services. I have my doubts, but it would make me feel better next time I'm stopped on a busy road just so church traffic can easily get in and out. To answer your question, I thought it was a free traffic cop because at NFL games, those directing traffic are not dressed as police.... the mega church I drive by has an actual city policeman directing traffic.

It's the same as when a bar or large event hires police. Some bars have private security, some have police officers they pay (twice). When Apple delivers new iPhones to a launch, they hire local government or private security. It's pretty common.

Also, it's their job that taxes have paid them to do.

Interesting. Thanks. Personally, I'd like to see churches hire their own private security like you mentioned bars do, but IIWII I guess. Hope you all understand why its annoying being stopped on a busy road so a mega church can let its 1000+ members out before anyone else gets to pass

[Marine Hokie]

I hope you're right and they pay for their traffic directing services. I have my doubts, but it would make me feel better next time I'm stopped on a busy road just so church traffic can easily get in and out. To answer your question, I thought it was a free traffic cop because at NFL games, those directing traffic are not dressed as police.... the mega church I drive by has an actual city policeman directing traffic.

It's the same as when a bar or large event hires police. Some bars have private security, some have police officers they pay (twice). When Apple delivers new iPhones to a launch, they hire local government or private security. It's pretty common.

Also, it's their job that taxes have paid them to do.

Interesting. Thanks. Personally, I'd like to see churches hire their own private security like you mentioned bars do, but IIWII I guess. Hope you all understand why its annoying being stopped on a busy road so a mega church can let its 1000+ members out before anyone else gets to pass

Bars often hire government police as well. Again, they pay them twice, since taxes have already paid their salary.

Other than you hate Christianity, why do you care if they hire government security?

I suspect churches would have a harder time directing traffic with private security, since people are used to the government monopoly on protection forces.

[Tafkam Hokie]

Question - is the point of your "imagine" scenario the economic impact (as many are debating), or the morality impact of having more people interested in their spiritual growth than in gladiatorial games?

If the latter, then I humbly suggest that going to church, in and of itself, doesn't really mean much. You can be an abomination of His will while going to church regularly. It really isn't all that uncommon.

One of my favorites quotes from Lewis' The ScrewTape Letters is when a demon is lamenting that the human he is in charge of corrupting is now going to church. His mentor exclaims something to the effect that church is good! We (meaning the demons) do some of our best work in church!.

I swear I see more politicking, backstabbing, power grabbing, and other assorted non-Christlike behavior in churches than I see out of them sometimes.

Game today, actually went to church instead of tailgating all morning, then going to the game.

I was sitting on my stoop before church listening to the church bells and noticing far more people dressed in Ravens jerseys than dressed in their Sunday best.

[nc87]

I hope you're right and they pay for their traffic directing services. I have my doubts, but it would make me feel better next time I'm stopped on a busy road just so church traffic can easily get in and out. To answer your question, I thought it was a free traffic cop because at NFL games, those directing traffic are not dressed as police.... the mega church I drive by has an actual city policeman directing traffic.

It's the same as when a bar or large event hires police. Some bars have private security, some have police officers they pay (twice). When Apple delivers new iPhones to a launch, they hire local government or private security. It's pretty common.

Also, it's their job that taxes have paid them to do.

Interesting. Thanks. Personally, I'd like to see churches hire their own private security like you mentioned bars do, but IIWII I guess. Hope you all understand why its annoying being stopped on a busy road so a mega church can let its 1000+ members out before anyone else gets to pass

Bars often hire government police as well. Again, they pay them twice, since taxes have already paid their salary.

Other than you hate Christianity, why do you care if they hire government security?

I suspect churches would have a harder time directing traffic with private security, since people are used to the government monopoly on protection forces.

I don't care that they HIRE government security. I, for some reason, believed they were receiving those services for free. While still annoying (having traffic stopped so a mega church can release its minions), I can't really complain about it more than any other annoying traffic scenario (which there are more than enough of here in Charlotte- and I complain quite a bit about those too )

[BigDave]

I hope you're right and they pay for their traffic directing services. I have my doubts, but it would make me feel better next time I'm stopped on a busy road just so church traffic can easily get in and out. To answer your question, I thought it was a free traffic cop because at NFL games, those directing traffic are not dressed as police.... the mega church I drive by has an actual city policeman directing traffic.

It's the same as when a bar or large event hires police. Some bars have private security, some have police officers they pay (twice). When Apple delivers new iPhones to a launch, they hire local government or private security. It's pretty common.

Also, it's their job that taxes have paid them to do.

Interesting. Thanks. Personally, I'd like to see churches hire their own private security like you mentioned bars do, but IIWII I guess. Hope you all understand why its annoying being stopped on a busy road so a mega church can let its 1000+ members out before anyone else gets to pass

I would bet $eleventy billion that most localities require you to have police officers if they are directing traffic on a public road. If it's your own parking lot, you can use volunteers, Boy Scouts, high school football teams, whatever, but if it's a public road, I'm sure you are required to use police officers.

There's a church that I pass on my way home from church and they always have what looks like college-age kids in their parking lot directing traffic, but there is one uniformed police officer on the street.

And if you could pull off the anti-religion blinders, I'm sure you'd realize it's better to have the police officer than to not have anyone there ... if there's nobody there, then people get impatient waiting - they floor it to pull out into traffic when they shouldn't, and they cause crashes. It saves lives to have traffic guards there.

[nc87]

Question - is the point of your "imagine" scenario the economic impact (as many are debating), or the morality impact of having more people interested in their spiritual growth than in gladiatorial games?

If the latter, then I humbly suggest that going to church, in and of itself, doesn't really mean much. You can be an abomination of His will while going to church regularly. It really isn't all that uncommon.

One of my favorites quotes from Lewis' The ScrewTape Letters is when a demon is lamenting that the human he is in charge of corrupting is now going to church. His mentor exclaims something to the effect that church is good! We (meaning the demons) do some of our best work in church!.

I swear I see more politicking, backstabbing, power grabbing, and other assorted non-Christlike behavior in churches than I see out of them sometimes.

Game today, actually went to church instead of tailgating all morning, then going to the game.

I was sitting on my stoop before church listening to the church bells and noticing far more people dressed in Ravens jerseys than dressed in their Sunday best.

Very good post tafkam. I am assuming the OP was referring to the latter- the morality impact of going to church, but wanted to make the point that while he might believe in improved morality by going to church, there is another (economic) side of the argument that he was ignoring.

I also agree with you- simply going to church means nothing. I could go to church next weekend - would any of you believe that makes me "saved"? Probably not.... I sure as hell don't think it would "save" me- if there is such a thing as hell, I'm gonna be there along with most everyone else. It's a very poor assumption some people make correlating morality with church.... some of the best people I know are not religious, and some of the worst people I know claim to be very religious. It also works the other way around. There really seems to be no correlation between religion and ACTUAL morality- re-enforcing my idea that all religions, including no religion at all, are equal.

[Marine Hokie]

I don't care that they HIRE government security. I, for some reason, believed they were receiving those services for free. While still annoying (having traffic stopped so a mega church can release its minions), I can't really complain about it more than any other annoying traffic scenario (which there are more than enough of here in Charlotte- and I complain quite a bit about those too )

What if they weren't paying extra (they generally are)? Taxes already pay for their services.
Before you point out that churches don't pay taxes, their employees do, just like those of any other non-profit. Even if they didn't, with some exceptions, services received from the government (such as police) aren't generally based on taxes paid.

[nc87]

I would bet $eleventy billion that most localities require you to have police officers if they are directing traffic on a public road. If it's your own parking lot, you can use volunteers, Boy Scouts, high school football teams, whatever, but if it's a public road, I'm sure you are required to use police officers.

There's a church that I pass on my way home from church and they always have what looks like college-age kids in their parking lot directing traffic, but there is one uniformed police officer on the street.

And if you could pull off the anti-religion blinders, I'm sure you'd realize it's better to have the police officer than to not have anyone there ... if there's nobody there, then people get impatient waiting - they floor it to pull out into traffic when they shouldn't, and they cause crashes. It saves lives to have traffic guards there.

You could argue that its better to have police at every busy intersection where there is no stop light- but that isn't the case. Again, my main beef was that I thought they were receiving those services for free, and I have been corrected. Still annoying being stopped by a mega church, but again, I am annoyed nearly every time I'm on the road here in Charlotte (my road rage is worse than my anti-religious rage, believe it or not). Glad you all clarified that the church does not receive those services for free, it's one less thing that will make me angry when driving

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is? Hope he realizes that America was built on freedom of religion, and his idea of morality may not match up with people of different religions.

I wonder if, instead of going to NFL games, all those people went to muslim churches (or whatever they call them?).... if he'd still be in favor of that.

[BigDave]

What if they weren't paying extra (they generally are)? Taxes already pay for their services.
Before you point out that churches don't pay taxes, their employees do, just like those of any other non-profit. Even if they didn't, with some exceptions, services received from the government (such as police) aren't generally based on taxes paid.

I'm confused by this line of logic. Taxes exist, therefore any conceivable government service ought to have no user fee?

[BigDave]

You could argue that its better to have police at every busy intersection where there is no stop light- but that isn't the case.

Does that intersection, as is the case of people leaving a church, have hundreds or thousands of people waiting there at a time? If so, I'd think it would already have a stop light.

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is?

Maybe, just maybe, his (or her?) argument for attending church was a non-economic one. There's more to life than economics.

[Marine Hokie]

What if they weren't paying extra (they generally are)? Taxes already pay for their services.
Before you point out that churches don't pay taxes, their employees do, just like those of any other non-profit. Even if they didn't, with some exceptions, services received from the government (such as police) aren't generally based on taxes paid.

I'm confused by this line of logic. Taxes exist, therefore any conceivable government service ought to have no user fee?

I absolutely didn't say that. "with some exceptions, services received from the government (such as police) aren't generally based on taxes paid." Let's be clear that I'm not advocating here for any position, just saying what happens with most government services.
Personally, I'd prefer that ALL government services are provided based on user fees.

[nc87]

You could argue that its better to have police at every busy intersection where there is no stop light- but that isn't the case.

Does that intersection, as is the case of people leaving a church, have hundreds or thousands of people waiting there at a time? If so, I'd think it would already have a stop light.

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is?

Maybe, just maybe, his (or her?) argument for attending church was a non-economic one. There's more to life than economics.

I'm assuming the OP argument was in favor of morality, not economics. I'm just pointing out to him that while his version of morality (who is to say he and his religion are right, anyway?) may mean going to church instead of NFL games would be good for society- there is no denying the economic impact that would have, and it would be a negative one.

Again, I'm also interested to hear if the OP would approve of all NFL goers going to muslim churches (is that what they call them? temples? i have no idea) instead of football games?

[Marine Hokie]

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is?

Is this a joke?

[nc87]

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is?

Is this a joke?

No. If everyone stopped going to NFL games and instead went to church, there would be 32 local economies harmed very badly

[Marine Hokie]

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is?

Is this a joke?

No. If everyone stopped going to NFL games and instead went to church, there would be 32 local economies harmed very badly

My concern is that you'd admonish someone for making a personal choice that has a perceived negative economic impact.

[nc87]

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is?

Is this a joke?

No. If everyone stopped going to NFL games and instead went to church, there would be 32 local economies harmed very badly

My concern is that you'd admonish someone for making a personal choice that has a perceived negative economic impact.

Are you not concerned about the OP admonishing people for making a personal choice that has a perceived negative impact on morality?

[Marine Hokie]

As for the economic impact of church vs NFL, I'd like to see an argument from the OP in favor of church. Is he willing to harm the economy to improve his specific idea of what morality is?

Is this a joke?

No. If everyone stopped going to NFL games and instead went to church, there would be 32 local economies harmed very badly

My concern is that you'd admonish someone for making a personal choice that has a perceived negative economic impact.

Are you not concerned about the OP admonishing people for making a personal choice that has a perceived negative impact on morality?

He actually suggested that people go to church, then the game. That the morality and/or salvation of people would necessarily change as a result was already rebuked before I joined the topic.
I'm rebuking your position.