Is secession in the air?

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UpstateSCHokie
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Is secession in the air?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

I hope I live to see the day when the conservative/patriotic states break away from the lunatic liberal states, and get back to actually living by the Constitution (prior to the amendments added after 1913). The United States as its currently composed is ungovernable and not sustainable. The two major ideologies are too far apart and their differences seem irreconcilable. Give the libs their blues states and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and leave the rest of us alone to return to fiscal sanity and good old fashioned individual liberty and ruggedness.

===========================

SEPARATION ANXIETY
Is red state America seceding?
Pat Buchanan covers many movements across U.S. to divorce from urban rulers


In the last decade of the 20th century, as the Soviet Empire disintegrated, so, too, did that prison house of nations, the USSR.

Out of the decomposing carcass came Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Moldova, all in Europe; Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan in the Caucasus; and Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan in Central Asia.

Transnistria then broke free of Moldova, and Abkhazia and South Ossetia fought free of Georgia.

Yugoslavia dissolved far more violently into the nations of Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Kosovo.

The Slovaks seceded from Czechoslovakia. Yet a Europe that plunged straight to war after the last breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and 1939 this time only yawned. Let them go, all agreed.

The spirit of secession, the desire of peoples to sever ties to nations to which they have belonged for generations, sometimes for centuries, and to seek out their own kind, is a spreading phenomenon.

Scotland is moving toward a referendum on independence from England, three centuries after the Acts of Union. Catalonia pushes to be free of Madrid. Milanese and Venetians see themselves as a European people apart from Sicilians, Neapolitans and Romans.

Dutch-speaking Flanders wants to cut loose of French-speaking Wallonia in Belgium. Francophone Quebec, with immigrants from Asia and the Third World tilting the balance in favor of union, appears to have lost its historic moment to secede from Canada.

What are the forces pulling nations apart? Ethnicity, culture, history and language – but now also economics. And separatist and secessionist movements are cropping up here in the United States.

While many red state Americans are moving away from blue state America, seeking kindred souls among whom to live, those who love where they live but not those who rule them are seeking to secede.

The five counties of western Maryland – Garrett, Allegheny, Washington, Frederick and Carroll, which have more in common with West Virginia and wish to be rid of Baltimore and free of Annapolis, are talking secession.

The issues driving secession in Maryland are gun control, high taxes, energy policy, homosexual marriage and immigration.

Order Pat Buchanan’s brilliant and prescient books at WND’s Superstore.

Scott Strzelczyk, who lives in the town of Windsor in Carroll County and leads the Western Maryland Initiative, argues: “If you have a long list of grievances, and it’s been going on for decades, and you can’t get it resolved, ultimately [secession] is what you have to do.”

And there is precedent. Four of our 50 states – Maine, Vermont, Kentucky, West Virginia – were born out of other states.

Ten northern counties of Colorado are this November holding non-binding referenda to prepare a future secession from Denver and the creation of America’s 51st state.

Nine of the 10 Colorado counties talking secession and a new state, writes Reid Wilson of the Washington Post – Cheyenne, Kit Carson, Logan, Morgan, Phillips, Sedgwick, Washington, Weld and Yuma – all gave more than 62 percent of their votes to Mitt Romney. Five of these 10 counties gave Romney more than 75 percent of their vote.

Their issues with the Denver legislature: A new gun control law that triggered a voter recall of two Democratic state senators, state restrictions on oil exploration and the Colorado legislature’s party-line vote in support of gay marriage.

In California, which many have long believed should be split in two, the northern counties of Modoc and Siskiyou on the Oregon border are talking secession – and then union in a new state called Jefferson.

“California is essentially ungovernable in its present size,” says Mark Baird of the Jefferson Declaration Committee. Baird hopes to attract a dozen counties to join together before petitioning the state to secede.

Like the western Maryland and northern Colorado counties, the northern California counties are conservative, small town, rural and have little in common with San Francisco or Los Angeles, or Sacramento, where Republicans hold not one statewide office and are outnumbered better than 2-1 in both houses of the state legislature.

Folks on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, bordered by Wisconsin and the Great Lakes, which is connected to lower Michigan by a bridge, have long dreamed of a separate state called Superior. The UP has little in common with Lansing and nothing with Detroit.

While the folks in western Maryland, northern Colorado, northern California and on the Upper Peninsula might be described as red state secessionists, in Vermont the secessionists seem of the populist left. The Montpelier Manifesto of the Second Vermont Republic concludes:

“Citizens, lend your names to this manifesto and join in the honorable task of rejecting the immoral, corrupt, decaying, dying, failing American Empire and seeking its rapid and peaceful dissolution before it takes us all down with it.”

This sort of intemperate language may be found in Thomas Jefferson’s indictment of George III. If America does not get its fiscal house in order, and another Great Recession hits or our elites dragoon us into another imperial war, we will likely hear more of such talk.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/is-red-state ... GLvD6ra.99
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USN_Hokie
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by USN_Hokie »

I'll say that Obama has significantly weakened the state of the union and leave it at that.

I'm pretty sure that any attempt at secession would end up like the last.
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UpstateSCHokie
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

It will happen eventually. It will probably not be in our life times, but changing borders is one of the constants of world history. The only question for the USA is, will its borders change as a result of an internal conflict, or an external attack?
USN_Hokie wrote:I'll say that Obama has significantly weakened the state of the union and leave it at that.

I'm pretty sure that any attempt at secession would end up like the last.
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Once
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Once »

I'm a bit surprised. I wouldn't have pegged you as a guy who was against my right to vote.
UpstateSCHokie wrote:I hope I live to see the day when the conservative/patriotic states break away from the lunatic liberal states, and get back to actually living by the Constitution (prior to the amendments added after 1913). The United States as its currently composed is ungovernable and not sustainable. The two major ideologies are too far apart and their differences seem irreconcilable. Give the libs their blues states and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and leave the rest of us alone to return to fiscal sanity and good old fashioned individual liberty and ruggedness.
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UpstateSCHokie
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Ah sorry. I was not referring to the 19th amendment. Of course I would support the right for everyone to vote - once per election of course. I was talking about the 16th and 17th amendments.
Once wrote:I'm a bit surprised. I wouldn't have pegged you as a guy who was against my right to vote.
UpstateSCHokie wrote:I hope I live to see the day when the conservative/patriotic states break away from the lunatic liberal states, and get back to actually living by the Constitution (prior to the amendments added after 1913). The United States as its currently composed is ungovernable and not sustainable. The two major ideologies are too far apart and their differences seem irreconcilable. Give the libs their blues states and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and leave the rest of us alone to return to fiscal sanity and good old fashioned individual liberty and ruggedness.
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by CWHOKIECPA »

UpstateSCHokie wrote:I hope I live to see the day when the conservative/patriotic states break away from the lunatic liberal states, and get back to actually living by the Constitution (prior to the amendments added after 1913). The United States as its currently composed is ungovernable and not sustainable. The two major ideologies are too far apart and their differences seem irreconcilable. Give the libs their blues states and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and leave the rest of us alone to return to fiscal sanity and good old fashioned individual liberty and ruggedness.

===========================

SEPARATION ANXIETY
Is red state America seceding?
Pat Buchanan covers many movements across U.S. to divorce from urban rulers


In the last decade of the 20th century, as the Soviet Empire disintegrated, so, too, did that prison house of nations, the USSR.

Out of the decomposing carcass came Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Moldova, all in Europe; Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan in the Caucasus; and Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan in Central Asia.

Transnistria then broke free of Moldova, and Abkhazia and South Ossetia fought free of Georgia.

Yugoslavia dissolved far more violently into the nations of Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Kosovo.

The Slovaks seceded from Czechoslovakia. Yet a Europe that plunged straight to war after the last breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and 1939 this time only yawned. Let them go, all agreed.

The spirit of secession, the desire of peoples to sever ties to nations to which they have belonged for generations, sometimes for centuries, and to seek out their own kind, is a spreading phenomenon.

Scotland is moving toward a referendum on independence from England, three centuries after the Acts of Union. Catalonia pushes to be free of Madrid. Milanese and Venetians see themselves as a European people apart from Sicilians, Neapolitans and Romans.

Dutch-speaking Flanders wants to cut loose of French-speaking Wallonia in Belgium. Francophone Quebec, with immigrants from Asia and the Third World tilting the balance in favor of union, appears to have lost its historic moment to secede from Canada.

What are the forces pulling nations apart? Ethnicity, culture, history and language – but now also economics. And separatist and secessionist movements are cropping up here in the United States.

While many red state Americans are moving away from blue state America, seeking kindred souls among whom to live, those who love where they live but not those who rule them are seeking to secede.

The five counties of western Maryland – Garrett, Allegheny, Washington, Frederick and Carroll, which have more in common with West Virginia and wish to be rid of Baltimore and free of Annapolis, are talking secession.

The issues driving secession in Maryland are gun control, high taxes, energy policy, homosexual marriage and immigration.

Order Pat Buchanan’s brilliant and prescient books at WND’s Superstore.

Scott Strzelczyk, who lives in the town of Windsor in Carroll County and leads the Western Maryland Initiative, argues: “If you have a long list of grievances, and it’s been going on for decades, and you can’t get it resolved, ultimately [secession] is what you have to do.”

And there is precedent. Four of our 50 states – Maine, Vermont, Kentucky, West Virginia – were born out of other states.

Ten northern counties of Colorado are this November holding non-binding referenda to prepare a future secession from Denver and the creation of America’s 51st state.

Nine of the 10 Colorado counties talking secession and a new state, writes Reid Wilson of the Washington Post – Cheyenne, Kit Carson, Logan, Morgan, Phillips, Sedgwick, Washington, Weld and Yuma – all gave more than 62 percent of their votes to Mitt Romney. Five of these 10 counties gave Romney more than 75 percent of their vote.

Their issues with the Denver legislature: A new gun control law that triggered a voter recall of two Democratic state senators, state restrictions on oil exploration and the Colorado legislature’s party-line vote in support of gay marriage.

In California, which many have long believed should be split in two, the northern counties of Modoc and Siskiyou on the Oregon border are talking secession – and then union in a new state called Jefferson.

“California is essentially ungovernable in its present size,” says Mark Baird of the Jefferson Declaration Committee. Baird hopes to attract a dozen counties to join together before petitioning the state to secede.

Like the western Maryland and northern Colorado counties, the northern California counties are conservative, small town, rural and have little in common with San Francisco or Los Angeles, or Sacramento, where Republicans hold not one statewide office and are outnumbered better than 2-1 in both houses of the state legislature.

Folks on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, bordered by Wisconsin and the Great Lakes, which is connected to lower Michigan by a bridge, have long dreamed of a separate state called Superior. The UP has little in common with Lansing and nothing with Detroit.

While the folks in western Maryland, northern Colorado, northern California and on the Upper Peninsula might be described as red state secessionists, in Vermont the secessionists seem of the populist left. The Montpelier Manifesto of the Second Vermont Republic concludes:

“Citizens, lend your names to this manifesto and join in the honorable task of rejecting the immoral, corrupt, decaying, dying, failing American Empire and seeking its rapid and peaceful dissolution before it takes us all down with it.”

This sort of intemperate language may be found in Thomas Jefferson’s indictment of George III. If America does not get its fiscal house in order, and another Great Recession hits or our elites dragoon us into another imperial war, we will likely hear more of such talk.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/is-red-state ... GLvD6ra.99
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Once
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Once »

Lol. I knew it was inadvertent on your part. Of course we differ politically, but I've never seen you as the "I'll do the thinkin' for my woman so she better keep her mouth closed, her legs op...... " Well, you get where I'm headed with that. I'll be in the kitchen if anyone needs anything.

UpstateSCHokie wrote:Ah sorry. I was not referring to the 19th amendment. Of course I would support the right for everyone to vote - once per election of course. I was talking about the 16th and 17th amendments.
Once wrote:I'm a bit surprised. I wouldn't have pegged you as a guy who was against my right to vote.
UpstateSCHokie wrote:I hope I live to see the day when the conservative/patriotic states break away from the lunatic liberal states, and get back to actually living by the Constitution (prior to the amendments added after 1913). The United States as its currently composed is ungovernable and not sustainable. The two major ideologies are too far apart and their differences seem irreconcilable. Give the libs their blues states and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and leave the rest of us alone to return to fiscal sanity and good old fashioned individual liberty and ruggedness.
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Oh trust me. There's no way I would ever be able to keep my wife's mouth shut (not that I would ever want her to), but she has a mind of her own, and if I piss her off, she's not afraid to give me a piece of it! :-)
Once wrote:Lol. I knew it was inadvertent on your part. Of course we differ politically, but I've never seen you as the "I'll do the thinkin' for my woman so she better keep her mouth closed, her legs op...... " Well, you get where I'm headed with that. I'll be in the kitchen if anyone needs anything.

UpstateSCHokie wrote:Ah sorry. I was not referring to the 19th amendment. Of course I would support the right for everyone to vote - once per election of course. I was talking about the 16th and 17th amendments.
Once wrote:I'm a bit surprised. I wouldn't have pegged you as a guy who was against my right to vote.
UpstateSCHokie wrote:I hope I live to see the day when the conservative/patriotic states break away from the lunatic liberal states, and get back to actually living by the Constitution (prior to the amendments added after 1913). The United States as its currently composed is ungovernable and not sustainable. The two major ideologies are too far apart and their differences seem irreconcilable. Give the libs their blues states and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and leave the rest of us alone to return to fiscal sanity and good old fashioned individual liberty and ruggedness.
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Once
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Once »

Ha. Back to your original post. Can you imagine what the immigration process would look like for those people who find themselves in conservative pockets in a liberal area or the reverse? Logistical nightmare. It would eventually correct itself, but I can see it now. Also, I can't help but envision the traffic on the causeway connecting Saudi Arabia to Bahrain (Bahrain is the liberal weekend partyland for Saudis who are conservative during the week and like to get their drinking/whoring needs met on the weekend) or the bumper to bumper traffic crawling towards Vegas from Utah.
UpstateSCHokie wrote:Oh trust me. There's no way I would ever be able to keep my wife's mouth shut (not that I would ever want her to), but she has a mind of her own, and if I piss her off, she's not afraid to give me a piece of it! :-)
Once wrote:Lol. I knew it was inadvertent on your part. Of course we differ politically, but I've never seen you as the "I'll do the thinkin' for my woman so she better keep her mouth closed, her legs op...... " Well, you get where I'm headed with that. I'll be in the kitchen if anyone needs anything.

UpstateSCHokie wrote:Ah sorry. I was not referring to the 19th amendment. Of course I would support the right for everyone to vote - once per election of course. I was talking about the 16th and 17th amendments.
Once wrote:I'm a bit surprised. I wouldn't have pegged you as a guy who was against my right to vote.
UpstateSCHokie wrote:I hope I live to see the day when the conservative/patriotic states break away from the lunatic liberal states, and get back to actually living by the Constitution (prior to the amendments added after 1913). The United States as its currently composed is ungovernable and not sustainable. The two major ideologies are too far apart and their differences seem irreconcilable. Give the libs their blues states and let them spend themselves into oblivion, and leave the rest of us alone to return to fiscal sanity and good old fashioned individual liberty and ruggedness.
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Once wrote:Ha. Back to your original post. Can you imagine what the immigration process would look like for those people who find themselves in conservative pockets in a liberal area or the reverse? Logistical nightmare. It would eventually correct itself, but I can see it now. Also, I can't help but envision the traffic on the causeway connecting Saudi Arabia to Bahrain (Bahrain is the liberal weekend partyland for Saudis who are conservative during the week and like to get their drinking/whoring needs met on the weekend) or the bumper to bumper traffic crawling towards Vegas from Utah.
Oh it would be messy no doubt. But I guess those folks living in the blue pockets of the new red America would feel sort of like the way the people living in the red pockets of Colorado and California do now.

In my ideal version of the new red America, state and local governments would have WAY more sovereignty than they do now. IMO, the more local the government, the more powerful it should be - not the other way around like it is today. Self governance used to be the rule in the United States of America rather than the exception. States would be more like countries that could pass their own laws without too much permission from whatever central government the red America would have. You know, sort of like how states thought of themselves when they all agreed to sign up for the Constitution.

So hopefully, this would mean that if the people of the country of Kentucky wanted to legalize prostitution and gambling, they would be able to do so and the central government couldn't do a thing about it. Likewise, if the country of Virginia wanted to display the 10 commandments on the state house lawn, the central government couldn't stop them either.

The only real function of the central government would be to provide for the common defense, secure the borders around the new red America, and uphold only those rights that the Constitution lists as God-given and unalienable. Sound familiar? It would be sort of like the USA was before we created the federal leviathan. That's why Nevada was able to legalize prostitution back in the 1800's and Washington DC had no say in the matter (unlike today).

I imagine the new blue America would do away with the states completely, and just have one giant state/country that is governed by one centralized powerful government. The people living in the red pockets of this new blue America would probably just be SOL, because it would act more like a true democracy where the mob would rule (think Chicago or Detroit).
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133743Hokie
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by 133743Hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:I'll say that Obama has significantly weakened the state of the union and leave it at that.

I'm pretty sure that any attempt at secession would end up like the last.
Yep. Bad, bad idea. Use any citizen "uprising" to change the system from within
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Marine Hokie »

UpstateSCHokie wrote:uphold only those rights that the Constitution lists as God-given and unalienable.
So you're SOL on rights that don't make it into the constitution?
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Of course not. Those rights would be upheld be state and local governments. I was strictly talking about the limited scope of the federal government.
Marine Hokie wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:uphold only those rights that the Constitution lists as God-given and unalienable.
So you're SOL on rights that don't make it into the constitution?
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Marine Hokie »

Ah. It will work this time though, right?
UpstateSCHokie wrote:Of course not. Those rights would be upheld be state and local governments. I was strictly talking about the limited scope of the federal government.
Marine Hokie wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:uphold only those rights that the Constitution lists as God-given and unalienable.
So you're SOL on rights that don't make it into the constitution?
A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

Well that's a different question but if it has any chance it has to start with a small and extremely limited central governing body. Maybe more like a coordination body rather than governing.
Marine Hokie wrote:Ah. It will work this time though, right?
UpstateSCHokie wrote:Of course not. Those rights would be upheld be state and local governments. I was strictly talking about the limited scope of the federal government.
Marine Hokie wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:uphold only those rights that the Constitution lists as God-given and unalienable.
So you're SOL on rights that don't make it into the constitution?
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Marine Hokie »

Interesting. What specifically would it coordinate?
UpstateSCHokie wrote:Well that's a different question but if it has any chance it has to start with a small and extremely limited central governing body. Maybe more like a coordination body rather than governing.
Marine Hokie wrote:Ah. It will work this time though, right?
UpstateSCHokie wrote:Of course not. Those rights would be upheld be state and local governments. I was strictly talking about the limited scope of the federal government.
Marine Hokie wrote:
UpstateSCHokie wrote:uphold only those rights that the Constitution lists as God-given and unalienable.
So you're SOL on rights that don't make it into the constitution?
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by HooFighter »

Marine Hokie wrote:Ah. It will work this time though, right?
It was a brilliant idea 250 years ago when most people lived their entire lives within the same 10 mile radius.
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Marine Hokie »

Some, not all or most, from the American ruling class sure thought it was brilliant. Most people didn't get a say though.
HooFighter wrote:
Marine Hokie wrote:Ah. It will work this time though, right?
It was a brilliant idea 250 years ago when most people lived their entire lives within the same 10 mile radius.
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by 133743Hokie »

HooFighter wrote:
Marine Hokie wrote:Ah. It will work this time though, right?
It was a brilliant idea 250 years ago when most people lived their entire lives within the same 10 mile radius.
You'd be surprised at the current data on this
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Marine Hokie »

133743Hokie wrote:You'd be surprised at the current data on this
Can you share a link to your data? I haven't heard this about current times and would be interested in reading about it.
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by 133743Hokie »

Marine Hokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:You'd be surprised at the current data on this
Can you share a link to your data? I haven't heard this about current times and would be interested in reading about it.
Per Pew Research survey in 2008, 37% of adults live in the same town where they were born; 57% have never left the state they were born in.

http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/1 ... tayers.pdf
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Re: Is secession in the air?

Post by Marine Hokie »

133743Hokie wrote:
Marine Hokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:You'd be surprised at the current data on this
Can you share a link to your data? I haven't heard this about current times and would be interested in reading about it.
Per Pew Research survey in 2008, 37% of adults live in the same town where they were born; 57% have never left the state they were born in.

http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/1 ... tayers.pdf
Interesting. The magnet/sticky states chart is a lot different than what I'd have thought.
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